BTGC: S02E01 - Values with Megan (Transcript)
Like many in the PDXWIT community, we on the all-volunteer podcast team (co-hosts Kimberly Embry and Dawn Mott, podcast lead April Leonard, and sound engineer Max Ono) find it easy to fangurl over Megan Bigelow. Not only is she the founder and board president of PDXWIT, she holds down a full time job as Director of Customer Reliability Engineering, and is a stellar mom who knows how to work in time for herself (she shared with us that 4:30 - 5:30 AM is reserved for mommy time!).
Megan arrived tastefully early for our recording at Cast Iron Coding, carrying a motorcycle helmet she uses to ride her scooter, with a big smile on her face. After a warm greeting we got down to the business of shoring up some final details for Season 2 and laughing our way through sound check. The PDXWIT podcast team feel that Megan Bigelow is the living embodiment of the PDXWIT values and the perfect person to help kick off our new season of Breaking the Glass Ceiling.
Season 2 of PDXWIT’s all-volunteer podcast team is made up of co-hosts Kimberly Embry and Dawn Mott, podcast lead April Leonard, and sound engineer Max Ono. Find more at pdxwit.org/podcast.
Full Transcript:
Megan Bigelow: Welcome to Breaking The Glass Ceiling, a PDXWIT podcast. I'm Megan Bigelow, the founder and board president of PDXWIT. We interview people to dig below the surface of their achievements and challenges, showcasing the story behind the story. We believe that focusing on the person and humanizing their lived experiences will help us shape the future of tech.
Kimberly: Hi, and welcome to
Kimberly and Dawn: Breaking the Glass Ceiling
Kimberly: A PDXWIT podcast. I'm Kimberly Embry, a technical support engineer and podcast co-host. I use she/her pronouns.
Dawn: And I'm Dawn Mott, software engineer and podcast co-host. I also use she/her pronouns. We’d first like to take a moment to thank our sponsor Kiva.
Kimberly: Kiva is an international nonprofit working to expand financial access to help underserved communities thrive. More than 80% of the borrowers Kiva serves around the world are women. They are headquartered here in Portland, Oregon and are hiring engineers to work on blockchain and marketplace projects. You can learn more at kiva.org/careers.
Dawn: With this season of Breaking the Glass Ceiling, our second season, each episode will revolve around one of the five core values of PDXWIT as experienced and exemplified through our members. To introduce us to PDXWIT's core values we've got today Megan Bigelow, and Megan uses she/her pronouns. She's the founder and board president of PDXWIT, a Director of Customer Reliability Engineering, a rock star mom, and an overall superhuman.
Kimberly: You're making a face.
(All laugh)
Megan: Wow, I don't know that I've ever had an intro like that. Thank you. It's great to be here.
Kimberly: Oh, we are so so glad that you're here with us. Especially here at — got to give a quick shout-out to Cast Iron Coding for letting us use their space. But again, so we are super excited to have you here on this show today and to introduce us, and all of us, all of our listeners, to the values of PDXWIT.
Megan: Yeah, this is great. I'm so, I'm very excited as well. Thanks for having me.
Kimberly: Yeah, of course.
Dawn: Thanks for coming.
Kimberly: So to get into the values, let's just jump right into it. So how did PDXWIT values come into fruition, like through your own life, your experiences, joint venture?
Megan: Yeah, so in all candor, the values of PDXWIT, well, PDXWIT didn't have stated values for many years. Because let's be honest, the organization has been a very organic ever-changing kind of thing. But when we hired our first executive director, Elizabeth Stock, she really instilled in the importance of having values so that our organization could have something to connect itself to and every action that we take. And so her and I literally just pulled out a Google Doc and started brainstorming some ideas and you know, we scratched a few things out, and I think the thing that we really wanted to embody in our values was this sense of the organization and the people within it as constantly evolving, constantly changing, and that we want to create a supportive space for that to take place. And this change is on many, many levels. It's as a person. It's in your journey and understanding how you contribute to diversity and inclusion. It's your career. So we're operating on a number of different levels, but we wanted to make sure that the space was safe for that to take shape.
Kimberly: Yeah, and that goes actually really well into our next question of, why are shared values important? So you touched on that a little bit. So if you could dive in even deeper and why shared values are not only important for PDXWIT and like getting this out there and having us all come together and be a part of a collective and a goal, a shared goal. But how do you also see that outside?
Megan: Right. So I think — you know, we have a purpose and everyone knows, hopefully by now most people know our purpose or can easily find it, right, of encouraging those who identify as women, non-binary, and underrepresented to join tech and supporting and empowering them so they stay in tech. But I think the question is, how do you do that?
Megan: And what perspective do you have when you're executing on fulfilling your mission? And so I think that's where the values came in. And it was also a way to share more broadly what we want to navigate others as they're working with our organization.
Megan: I mean, every time a volunteer or a person who attends an event or anyone who is participating in some way in our organization like those are micro-actions that kind of become aggregated into what this organization is.
Megan: And if we can all sort of operate under the same sort of guiding principles, then it really just allows this aggregate of our work to become even more meaningful and more focused. So that was really the idea behind having these values. And that's why I'm just like really excited to talk about them, because I don't think people recognize how their tiny actions sort of play into it and it's so important to take a moment and like highlight that.
Kimberly: Yeah. So highlight that for us. Tell us like what are PDXWIT’s values?
Megan: Yeah, so our values are Technology. So we really strongly believe in this industry. No, let me just take a step back and say that a lot of what we talk about related to the tech industry, we think applies to a number of industries. We don't think that the inequities in tech are specifically different than those in other male-dominated or white-dominated industries, but what we do think is that technology is critical in that it is literally shaping our future.
Megan: And so if we can change this industry, we feel like we can change the world and so our value around technology is really ‘we believe in reducing the imbalances that exists in tech so that everyone is represented and skilled in an industry that is shaping the future of humanity.’ And so as I was saying, if we can endeavor to do that then I think we can endeavor to change the world.
Megan: And then Authenticity. So authenticity is a value that I think just having founded this organization in 2012 was something that I really set out to do from the very, very beginning. And so we placed it here because if you as... if I, as the leader of this organization approach everything as just myself. Meaning I acknowledge that there are things I don't know. I acknowledge that there are things that you know, I want to do or I can't do, or maybe my feelings were getting hurt. Like if I can just fully engage in what I'm doing then other people will see that engagement and authenticity and give it back. And I think that's the only place where growth can actually happen, is if people are truly allowing themselves to be vulnerable and have space to be themselves.
Megan: And Community is really probably the value that everybody is most familiar with simply because we are a community organization. [We] exist to build community. And we believe that by bringing people together under a shared purpose, which is our mission, aligned with our values, then we can help people find meaningful changes in their career and their life, navigating really difficult situations and also sort of tearing down systems that we all exist in to bring, you know, greater good for a broader set of people. So I think that's the purpose of community here.
Megan: And then finally, oh no, we have two more. So Inclusion. You know, this is really about making space for literally everyone and being willing to take in feedback, that I've had to do over the course of eight years to make sure that the things that we're doing are actually helping and not being, not perpetuating damage. And the only way to really, sort of embark on a journey to be inclusive is to make sure that you open yourself up to understanding when you're not being inclusive. Sometimes that’s extremely hard to find out.
Megan: And that's where the Self Awareness, the final value comes in. Where we have to approach everything we do from a perspective of ‘How are my actions being sort of perceived and how are they affecting other people? And that feeds into, you know what I learned — I've learned something about how I've just behaved and now I can use that as a tool to become more inclusive.’
Kimberly: Yeah, sure. So so quickly recap for our listeners: our PDXWIT’s five core values are Technology, Authenticity, Community, Inclusion, and Self Awareness. And so to move back into this conversation of a theme that I've felt as a personal theme from you, as far as like your take on our values and how values can shape an organization’s and a mission’s identity and create that, you know, authenticity, community, inclusion, and self-awareness. So, recently the whole State of the Community (link to report here) results came out. And for listeners, in case you don't know, I myself, Kimberly, am a woman of color, along with my co-host as well, Dawn. So as a cis, white woman those results and and seeing those results and specifically around the difference between how people, different people, are perceiving the actions that a company takes towards diversity and inclusion, were those surprising to you? How did you react? How did you feel about that in that moment when you saw all that?
Megan: Yeah, I would say when I when I saw... to be clear in our, in our survey we cut the data across racial lines as opposed to just gender lines. And when I saw the... So when we first cut the data, actually we just cut it across gender lines and I was like, there's something more to this. And so I specifically asked to have them cut it across racial lines. So it wasn't presented to us that way, we actually asked for it to be cut that way and I can't say that I was surprised but this was the first time I'd actually seen data that showed it. And so there's something about like anecdotally or sort of knowing something in your gut and then seeing data, like, confirm it.
Kimberly: For sure.
Megan: And it was both, like, extremely depressing and exhilarating at the same time. And exhilarating only because it was like, oh if we have data then other people can see this too, right? It's hard to really take action or wrap your mind around something that you can't quite understand but when you present data, it makes it a lot easier.
Megan: So there are other parts of the survey though that had a varied, I had a very different reaction to when I saw them, so we can talk about that if you want to later, but yeah in that particular data point it was more of a, yeah I kind of knew this, but now we can do something about it.
Kimberly: So, doing something about it. What does that look like for you, just Megan, you? What does that look like for Director you? And then, what does that look like for you as the founder and board president?
Megan: So for Megan me, as an individual, the thing that it does for me is make... sort of turns on my self-awareness sort of you know, if I had a lever to keep turning on my ability to be more self-aware. It's like it like reminds me that I need to do it more right? It's a matter of yeah, like looking at the data especially in which you know white or cis people are more likely to recommend people, you know from underrepresented groups to work at their company. I have totally done that before.
Megan: I've done it because I thought that the company was inclusive because I felt included. Not realizing that my level of inclusion as a white woman and all the other things that you mentioned are not the same experiences that other folks have. So it basically made me realize that there's a tremendous amount of, sort of, awareness that I need to have around what I have available to me that it is invisible to me you, so making those things sort of not invisible. Visible, I guess. And then once I have that, like building a skill of recognizing it when it happens or if I see things happening and then calling it out. So I'm trying to think if I can give you an example. I mean, let's just be... like going back to the example where I said, like I have absolutely recommended people from underrepresented groups to work for companies. And those folks have worked, have gotten those jobs. Right? And so one of the things that I've had to reflect on is how, how was that experience for them? And I do feel in some cases some folks did not have good experiences, and considering I was the person that recommended them, I want to reflect on what I hear from them in terms of how that played out for them and what I can do differently as a person, as a friend, next time. Like what are some things that I could be looking out for so that before I recommend somebody for a job that I would give them sort of a broader perspective so that they have more information to make that decision for themselves.
Megan: So then around Director me. So as a director level or as a manager level person, you know, you have a of influence over people and who report to you. And I have the ability to promote and to hire and to give raises and to give bonuses and you know, even though it's a small group of people, it's still impactful to those individuals’ lives. And so all of this information carries forward for me as I do that — like I, for very long time have been paying attention to pay equity and have done everything I possibly can in my teams to make sure that like the way in which folks that report to me are paid is internally equitable, right? I mean as someone who's in middle management, I don't have like the authority to make policy change necessarily at an organization, but I do have tools available to me to fulfill my moral obligation as best as I can to shore up gaps, right? Or to push back when I feel like there's a system that’s sort of pushing me in one direction that feels like it could produce an inequitable outcome. Or to take advantage of opportunities like, main bosses want to talk to me about certain topics and they want my feedback. Like I will take that opportunity and I will give them that feedback. Or sitting in a meeting where I'm the only woman there, which happens literally all day long, and not looking at that as, “Oh my God I’m the only woman there”, instead looking at that like “I have a seat at this table and I'm going to say something. I'm not going to be afraid of the fact that I am, I'm here the door has already been opened to me. No, it'd be very hard for them to pull me out of it. So I'm going to take advantage of the fact that I'm here”.
Megan: Yeah, and then you were asking, as the Leader of PDXWIT, I would say my role is becoming more and more like spokesperson and then behind the scenes. So there's a lot of stuff that I do that is invisible, like people don't see it. Where it could be, “Have we considered this when we're assembling this event? Have we considered, you know talking to this person and getting this person's feedback? Or do we know what the impact of this could be?” So, it's a little bit of that and then — or I shouldn't say a “little bit” — I would say it's a lot of that and then it's also being willing to kind of stand out there on the front lines and have some conversations that are extremely uncomfortable to have because again, like I have the privilege of having that access, I will take advantage of having it. It's going to make me uncomfortable, had to do it very recently — still kind of reeling over how uncomfortable recent situations were — but the reality is like, this is my work - it's my responsibility. I mean, there's a Toni Morrison quote that's like, “White people have a problem and take me out of that problem.” And I take that very seriously, meaning like, racism is a white person's problem. And I'm going to do whatever it is I can to take the Toni Morrisons of the world out of it and do my job to stop it.
Kimberly: Yeah. I’m tearing up from this, sorry, but I want to touch on that more because as a woman of color getting other people that don't look like me to vouch for me, that's uncomfortable and I can understand that that's a high ask to ask of somebody — especially if they don't know you, they're not invested in you, or for whatever reasons, right? How can we further encourage people to take the steps that you’ve taken? And yes, it's going to be hard and yes, it's going to be uncomfortable, but to recognize, you know, the benefits of that.
Megan: Yeah, so I'm not sure if this is going to directly answer this question, but I want to give an example. So I did a talk just the other day to a group of people that are, you know, they work in education, and a woman raised her hand and she said “A lot of the stuff that you're talking about, like I get it. I want to impact, I want to be a part of change.” But she's like, “I'm not an ultimate decision-maker like, I don't really see how my work could actually affect this.” Now, I have no experience in education other than the fact that I have a first grader and I have attended a couple PTA meetings, but I told her that the way that you do it, in my experience, is by first recognizing that everything you do does have an impact. Even if you don't think it does, right? So, you know, if you show up to a PTA meeting and you say nothing when someone else is getting their eyes rolled at them because they're speaking out about the way that, you know, the reading programs we have at school don't represent everybody. Yeah, right, like if you sit there and do nothing you are part of the problem. But like, but first recognize that by saying something you now become part of the solution. Now, that's a big deal in the PTA meeting. But if you just like take a big step back, it's like a tiny thing in the whole world, right? Yeah, but it, like, it matters.
Kimberly: For sure.
Megan: And so I mean to kind of hopefully answer your question, what I'm trying to do is make sure people like me recognize like we have nothing to be afraid of. Because what's the worst that could happen, right? I know like for a long time I spent a lot of time thinking, you know, that a bad thing that could happen to me would be very devastating - and not to say that you know bad things can't happen to me and that they wouldn't be devastating - but I mean, in terms of like “what if my boss doesn't like me” or whatever. I mean the thing that I recognize is that I have been gifted, without me asking for it, a very warm bubble around my entire life. So if I recognize that if I have a failure, my failure isn't that far to go, compared to what other people experience, then it gives me more courage to say like, “Okay like I can, I can speak up because if I stumble, my stumble doesn't take me down that far.”
Megan: And I'm willing to take a shorter fall, so maybe somebody else doesn't have to take a super longer fall. But it's like, getting people to recognize that. Does that answer your question?
Kimberly: Yeah.
Megan: Okay.
Kimberly: And it was nice to hear your personal take on it versus this kind of kitschy kind of take, but I like that and it's obvious that your journey with self-awareness has brought you like, to this point and to this place where you… I don’t want to... I hate the word help, but you want to bring a spotlight to other people.
Megan: Yeah and here's the thing, like the way that I see what I'm doing is more about bringing a spotlight to people that look like me. Meaning spotlighting them so that they see what they can do. Because like, this is about, like recognizing that if, if white people paid attention to some stuff then shit would actually get resolved. Right? Like, let's talk about — what's that woman's name, the climate, the young climate activist — what is her name?
Kimberly: Greta.
Megan: Greta. How many other young people who are actually affected by climate change have tried to speak out and didn't get nearly the same sort of extreme amount of exposure that she's getting, right? It took one young white girl and look at what happened. One. Okay, imagine if a couple of us in an office got together and decided like “You know what? We should really pay attention to how this policy has this impact or this has this.” That's what I'm trying to show. So it's like it's not about... I mean “help” I guess is the word in which I could say, “We're trying to help humanity because if we can help anything, we're helping everyone.”
Kimberly: Yeah. That was heavy. No, but like in the greatest way, just I feel like this interview has gone in a very deep direction.
Megan: Well, you invited me on here. What were you expecting?
(All laugh)
Dawn: I was kind of curious. I know in the past we've talked about the State of the Community and how you've mentioned that this year you realized we were writing it from the perspective of the cis-gender, white woman.
Megan: Yeah.
Dawn: How in the future are we going to remedy that so that it's more reflective, and we can actually, us people of color, gender non-conforming, can answer these questions that we think need to be answered in a way that can be heard?
Megan: Yeah, so that is a great question and I don't have a perfect answer yet. I have, we have gotten feedback already — so anything that's come forward is definitely getting included. But in terms of, you know, there's got to be some ways in which we could provide like community opportunity to vet and weigh in on questions, that’s safe and maybe even anonymous. I need, we need to figure out what that looks like, but it needs to happen because what we learned, as you are alluding to, is when you, you know create something that solves a problem for yourself — in this case mine — then what we get is a reflection of myself. And so you effectively erase everyone else's experience. So, yeah — open to ideas about how to do that — because again, I want to be really careful not to burden folks with like, “Please review this survey and help me make sure that it's going to, you know, work”, but there's got to be, you know a way that we can do it. I just have to figure out exactly what that looks like.
Dawn: It seems like listening to the feedback and being open to it is one of the very first steps you could take so that's wonderful.
Megan: Totally. Yeah.
Kimberly: Well, thank you for giving us all of that. It was really really nice to,again, get all of PDXWIT’s values out there as our opener to Season 2, and as we dive deeper into those values with other folks in our community... but before we wrap up the whole episode we do have, as tradition would have it, a question that we need to ask you:
Kimberly and Dawn: What's your favorite life hack?
(All laugh)
Megan: Oh my God. So I guess my favorite life hack is actually working from home. And that's because I save so much time, meaning I — and I work out at home. And so, basically my life hack is: do as many of the day-to-day things at home that you can, like I work out in my basement, I work in my basement, like work my job in my basement. So I've probably been able to save like two hours a day just from that — or three hours if you were to consider long commutes.
Dawn: Nice. So maybe remote working can be an episode here in the future.
Megan: Yes, I think we need that.
Kimberly: Absolutely. Alright. Well, thank you Megan for joining us here today and to the entire podcast team — special shout-out to our sound engineer Max.
Dawn: Woot woot.
Kimberly: And to all of you for listening. And of course, thank you again to our sponsor Kiva whose work has helped students pay for tuition, women start businesses, farmers invest in equipment, and families afford needed emergency care.
Dawn: On the next episode of Breaking The Glass Ceiling we’ll meet with Keela and Max and find out how they've created Community for themselves and others in the workplace. If you like our content, go ahead and like us wherever your listening to us, subscribe, check out the PDXWIT website. And we'll catch you later.
Megan Bigelow: PDXWIT is a 501(c)3 non-profit with the purpose of encouraging women, non-binary, and underrepresented people to join tech and supporting and empowering them so they stay in tech. Find out more about us at www.PDXWIT.org.