Noah Puckett Decodes Tech Industry Transitions

On this episode of Humanizing Tech, we demystify career transitions to the Tech Industry. 

In addition to being an Alchemy Code Lab grad and Software Engineer, Noah Puckett (they/them) leads the Accessibility Employee Resource Group (ERG) at New Relic.

We explore how neurodivergent perspectives can question and challenge the insularity of traditional workplaces. From making sense of nonsensical job descriptions and navigating corporate vagueness as a new hire, to applying the lens of mental health with intersectional solidarity - there’s no question that accessibility in the tech industry elevates a collective employee experience.

Tune in for some accessible tips if you’re anticipating new work environments, if you’re coping with the ongoing uncertainties that come with working in tech, and for avoiding burnout if you’re currently involved in organizational DEI work. 

Transcript

Intro

Welcome to Humanizing Tech, a PDXWIT podcast. We interview people to dig below the surface of their achievements and challenges showcasing the story behind the story. We believe that focusing on the person and humanizing their lived experiences will help us shape the future of tech.

Anusha Neelam (00:00:35):

Before we get started, I want to acknowledge the land we are on, wherever we're tuning in from. PDXWIT recognizes the ongoing violence, trauma, and erasure indigenous Oregonians and Native American face. We are recording from Portland today. Portland rests on the traditional village sites of the Multnomah, Kathlamet, Clackamas, Chinook, Tualatin Kalapuya, Molalla and many other tribes who made their homes along the Columbia River. We endeavor to have this acknowledgement be more than just words. The tech industry is building the future of our world, and it is up to us to ensure that there is a future for all. To find out more about how we're supporting the future of indigenous Oregonians and Native Americans, please visit our website. We'll add a link in the show notes as well. 

AN (00:01:23):

Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Humanizing Tech. This is your host, Anusha, she/ her. So thrilled to be coming off of the summer season with, um, a brand new episode. I'm, I'm so excited. We took a couple months off and just excited to get back into it because we got, um, a great, uh, list of folks that we still are going to be, um, talking to this season. And I hope you all, um, have been doing well. Thank you so much for taking the time to tune in today. Um, this is gonna be a great one. So, without further ado, today, we have a very special guest with us, Noah Puckett. Noah uses they/them pronouns. They're a neurodivergent person who pivoted from a decade of healthcare into the tech industry and now works as a software engineer. Welcome Noah. So excited to have you here with us today. And, um, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story with us.

Noah Puckett (00:02:20):

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I was actually very excited when I saw the, um, I'm on the email list and I saw the email come in and I, you know, that's like weirdly specific. I would love to chime in. So, yeah, it's awesome to be here.

AN (00:02:34):

Yeah, no, that's amazing. I'm so glad that it worked out that way. I think this is one of the first times we've, um, and we wanna do more of this, like Cobra and I have been talking about it, but being able to really, um, dig into our own community and being able to see like, um, if we can share different stories. And so, so thankful that you responded and were interested in doing that. Yeah. Um, but, um, I, there's so much of your story that I, I want to unpack. Um, but one of the first things that we do when we generally are starting off the episode is, um, really asking our guests to introduce themselves. Like give us a little bit of the, uh, of their background. Um, so I'd love to hear from you a little bit about, you know, just, just who you are and, and, um, your background and also to the extent to which, um, you feel comfortable. If, um, you could also share a little bit about your neurodivergent background as well, that would be, um, awesome.

NP (00:03:25):

Yeah. Yeah. It's, I have <laugh>, I have so much background and it's always like, kind of like, what, what part do I kind of like open up and unfurl for you? Um, so I come from a very non-traditional educational background where, um, uh, my parents kind of saw me struggling from a very early age, which I think if we had gone, oh, we have more diagnostic criteria to start going, Hey, you know, neurodiversity is not something that only happens to one very specific set of people. And, you know, and if it was more diagnosed, I think we would've gone, oh, hey. Like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, no, they're having problems in this area that like, they're very sensitive to their environment, they're really struggling with change. Let's try, you know. But my parents were like, well, this kid's well spoken, this kid's like, very people oriented. So we didn't go, ah, autism, we went sensitive, delicate flower child who cannot be, you know.

So my parents decided to not do any formal education at all. Um, so like no kindergarten, no tests, curriculum, none of that. Um, and so all of my learning was self-directed from basically the age I would've gone into kindergarten. Um, <wow> until I went to community college when I was 18, um, to do, um, a nursing assistant certification. Um, and the <laugh>, it was, uh, like around the, the big, uh, economic downturn, um, and where basically no one was hiring. And I knew someone who said, well, how good's your stomach? And I was like, I don't know. They're like, well, this is the grossest job, but like, it's always hiring. There's never a shortage of people who need care. And so I was like, okay. 

So <Yeah.> Um, I did what amounted to like a 30 day program basically to get a certification and then started working in nursing homes. I did that for about five years, and then I started to want to kind of, uh, um, work with different demographics of people because nursing homes is just primarily, um, geriatric folks, um (mm-hmm) <affirmative>. And so I went into work, um, at an acute long-term, um, care center called Vibra, it’s in Portland. And, uh, then I also went to work for, um, Kaiser Permanente. And, uh, so that was the last kind of like five-ish years (mm-hmm) <affirmative>. And then after 10 years I was sort of like, well, it's either, either go to nursing school, um, which is gonna be years and years and so much debt, or I can try to pivot my career and go into tech. And, um, and I had, uh, some roommates who were like, well, you know, you could do tech. I'm like, I don't know, I think tech kind of looks one certain way, doesn't it? And they're like, it's changing. Like, it's not perfect, but you would get a lot more money while you dealt with sexism and other things in the industry. You would get paid a lot more. I'm like, well, okay. I mean, all right. Uh, because it's not like I was working in a, in an industry that was free from that, you know? 

Um <Yeah, yeah> so I was like, okay. So I, I attended, um, a, a bootcamp where indeed I was a very sensitive, I was like, I think I was really leading the charge on how much you could have, like, just crying happened during education. Like, I was like, I'm so overwhelmed, I feel every big feeling. And, um, the <laugh> the, the bathrooms were just like the collective crying site for our school. And like our instructors, my instructors were so kind to me, they were like, you know, we get it. It's hard. And they just treated me like a totally sensible person who was just having big feelings. And so I felt like even though I was really scared to go from, I went to this community college course where my exam was literally putting on a compression sock on someone's foot, like it did not feel highly technical to going into something that, um, you know, really made me feel like, oh gosh, everyone else here went to like a, a regular school. Everyone else here, you know, has all this education. We had people who had done graduate programs and had degrees. I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna make it, you know? And, um, <yeah>

It, it turned out that a lot of the things that made me good at keeping people alive, um, also kept, uh, kept me in the industry. And so, yeah. So I, um, have been working at New Relic, which has been my first, uh, job into tech for the last about three years, um, years.

AN (00:08:07):

Wow. Yeah. That's very cool.

NP (00:08:09):

It's kind of a big bundle. Happy to like, unpack anything else,

AN (00:08:12):

<laugh>? Yeah, I was, I was gonna say, yeah, I, I have so much that I, uh, I would love to ask you and everything that you, um, just mentioned. And first of all, you did a wonderful job unpacking just your, your background. I mean, I know that's always, it always feels weird for me to start off with that question 'cause it's so broad, but I also feel like I, you know, obviously won't wanna give our guests the opportunity to talk about their background in their own words Yeah. Before we really dive into it. So, um, thanks for doing that. Um, first of all, congrats for, um, thank you, you know, landing your first job in tech. Um, that's great. Kudos to you. Yeah. <laugh>.

Um, I kind of wanna go back to kind of like the top, like one of the things that you mentioned at the very top around like your education and how, um, you know, that that path was for you. And it was like, it sounds like a more like non-traditional in terms of just like formal education and mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And you had said that you, it was like self-directed. So are, do you mean like it was, um, homeschool or just like, were you kind of like working through, like getting to maybe like, uh, a certain certification on your own? What was that process like? Can you say a little bit more about that <laugh>?

NP (00:09:22):

Yeah. No, it, one of the reasons that I am, I'm kind of okay at unpacking, like my background is because there's a lot of times when I have to try to be like, so this is not a thing that is common for any child in America in the last like 70 years. So lemme just try to paint you a weird picture. Yeah. Um, <that's perfect.> so we started to try to work through curriculum around like, the kindergarten age, but, uh, I think my parents were like, well, this is more crying than we know what to do with, so how about you just, you just do whatever the thing is you're drawn to, and we just trust that like, your brain is a sponge and you will learn stuff. I don't know if that was maybe the best choice. I think that there's a lot of nuances.

There's so many factors that go into like a small person becoming an adult and their education. You know, you've got, um, like you've got neurodiversity, you've got socioeconomic status, you've got race that plays a part of it. You have like geographic location and culture and trauma and, you know, so it's really hard to kind of like, go, was this the best option? Who knows? My parents were following, um, this concept of like radical unschooling. So there was no tests, no like certificate kind of work through things. Um, it was just sort of like, when I was 14, I was like, I think I'm gonna need to learn how to write by hand. And so I just like picked up a, a like old spiral journal I found in the house and just started to like, copy hand copy letters.

I was like, well, I've seen the keyboard letters, so I can probably just like draw a picture of the letters, you know? So it was just like all kind of coming up from like, I taught myself how to type because we had a computer and I think there was a game on it that like, tried to show you how to type. So I just studied that. So it was all of those things which, um, you know, again, there's a lot of pros and cons, but when going into tech, it is a lot of, there's no curriculum for how to make the software you're going to make. 'cause if there were, we, we could probably automate it honestly. Yeah. But what you need to do is go in there and start going, what do I know? What can I learn? You know, things like that. Yeah. So, yeah.

AN (00:11:43):

Yeah. Very, very interesting. I mean, I, yeah, I, I totally get that. I, I do feel like, um, there's a lot of, uh, conversation now that is happening, um, around just like our public education system and the way that it's built and, um, specifically as it pertains to, I think, um, folks that are neurodivergent, but, and, and also folks that just have different learning styles. Um, and I think that there's, there's a lot there that I'm sure does not necessarily, um, exist to be able to help in the ways that everybody needs for that to be, <yeah> so, yeah. <Yeah>

Totally, totally get that. Um, and I'm, so you talked a little bit about that. Um, so you were in healthcare for, for a decade and then made that transition over to, for, to, to the tech industry. Um, and you had spoken about the, the bootcamp and the struggles of just <Yeah.> being overwhelmed at like how much information was coming your way. Um, I, I'm curious to know a little bit more your, um, challenges making that pivot from healthcare to, to tech mm-hmm. <affirmative> especially as it relates to, you know, after you went through the bootcamp and tried to interview for your first role in the tech industry and, and so on so forth. Like, what would you say are some of the biggest challenges that you might've faced may making that pivot?

NP (00:13:06):

Yeah, that's an awesome question. I've been kind of noodling on things in that area, kind of coming up to the interview, like, all right, what, what are things that we might talk about? And, um, I, you know, it, it was very interesting, um, because I felt like going from the environment of healthcare, which, you know, for, for people who haven't done it, may not understand really the kind of day to day of, like, a person can just be like, whoops, there's blood coming out of my body. And I'm like, ah, I'm the person who gets the towels and the gloves. And that is a very real, like, <yeah> there is no ambiguity as to whether I'm good at my job as to what my job entails because it is laid out in a way that is very micromanaging and very informed by government policy, very regulated and like laws are coming out and that that is being taught to, you know, a like a demographic of people that often we consider less intelligent.

We have women and we have immigrants as a huge part of the care workforce. And those are not people that we are giving a lot of, um, autonomy or sort of like the, the benefit of the doubt of you, you're an adult. You're, you're saving people's lives every day. So going from that environment where, you know, and other service jobs where you have to clock in within a sixty second window, you have to, um, you know, and going from that to software engineering where, you know, my manager's like, yes, do the things that you would like to do. I trust you to structure your time. If you're, you're an adult, we hired you, of course you have judgment skills. It, it was very, you know, that transition was difficult. But to rewind a little bit closer to the code bootcamp, um, one of the struggles I really faced was trying to understand what that would look like.

I am a very literal person, <laugh>. Um, and so when they're like, yeah, you'll go to work and, you know, you'll be in an office, I'm like, okay. And it's not that I can't, it's not that I am without the ability to have an imagination, but do you mean I sit in the chair and like, then I do what I do in school and they're kinda, and I'm like, how do I know what I'm gonna do? And they're like, well, your manager will tell you. I'm like, so every day they're like, well, you don't have this big, I'm like, no, no, no. I need you to tell me what a typical day will look like. And I don't mean, well, you'll have some meetings and you'll do some work that is not particular enough. This is, and I think that a lot of the times people thought I was looking for reassurance when I was like, I'm not actually in this moment doubting who I am or what I can do.

<Yeah.> I am truly trying to get a literal explanation of this thing, because if I can't imagine it, if you tell me to go in, what I think, it turns out my thinking, it goes in a direction that many people's doesn't, and that's not wrong. <Yeah> But people don't expect it. Like, why did you do that on purpose? I'm like, so sorry. That is just how my brain works. That's not, that's, I'm not doing a bit, you know? And so, yeah. Um, when it came time to apply for jobs, I, um, I was looking at job descriptions and I was like, well, I don't have all of these criteria. And one of the difficult things about being, um, like not a, um, not a man in tech and not a cis like white man in tech especially, is that people really want to give me the advice that they wanna give to other underrepresented groups, which is, you know, you have just as much right to be here and like, think confidently. 

And I'm like, that is so true. And that is a really important part. I don't think that feedback should go away anytime soon, but my problem was like, but if the criteria is there and I don't meet the criteria, then I don't understand what it is that they want. And so I wasn't not applying. 'cause I'm like, I could never, I'm like, well, you listed the requirements and in my other industry, every single requirement was your job description in full mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you would do those every single day. Right. So when they're like, well, you should know Python, or you should have experience with this thing, you should know these tech in this languages. I'm like, well, if I say you need to be able to handle someone who starts bleeding, I'm saying that because that will happen to you on a Tuesday. You know? Right. So, <Yeah.>  yeah. So that, that was one of the blockers. Um, and I had to really drill down with, um, kind of the career services folks at my bootcamp and, um, like instructors who had worked in the field more. And I'm like, I'm not saying this as a, like, please remind me I'm good enough. I appreciate that you wanna support me in that way, but what I'm trying to say is I don't get it, and I need you to explain it. Like you would explain code, which is very explicitly in a very literal way with these examples. Yeah. And once I understood, I was like, okay, I get what you're saying, and I will apply for jobs <laugh>. Like, you know.

AN (00:17:55):

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's such a great, um, I think comparison, I mean, based on your background in healthcare versus, like, I, I'd never really thought about it that way. One thing I can say for sure, um, as someone who's also been in the tech industry for several years now, is that there's this like collective I think feeling, um, that there are things that we say, and also the way that our, like job descriptions are written that are just, it has detail and it has requirements, but it, it's also like, like what? <laugh> like, does that actually <what is that I did?> Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

And, um, and, and yeah, I, I would say that I, you know, similarly, I, I think I also have very much heard that advice. I'm just like, you know, um, everything from fake it till you make it to like, you know, <laugh> <Yeah.> 

Like, be really confident and you only have to meet, like everyone has, like, I feel like a different percentage of mm-hmm. <affirmative> requirements that you have to fulfill in order to actually apply for the job. And it can get very confusing as someone who is I'm sure entering the tech industry, um, especially coming off of, I, I would assume a role like yours in healthcare where, um, it's a great point that it's like, you know, you need these certifications and that's not a <yeah> <laugh> Would be nice.

NP (00:19:16):

Yeah. Yeah. <laugh>, you know. Yeah. Yeah. No one's in there being like, it'd be nice if you knew CPR, but if not, no worries. Yeah. We'll teach you the first time someone turns was like, that's not how we do <laugh>. Yeah,

AN (00:19:28):

Exactly. Yeah. Uh, I mean, and I, I guess this kind of, um, you know, brings up the point that you had mentioned in the pre-call around like, um, wanting to have those exact details, like you were just talking about in your daily routine, um, maybe even like the desk setup, standup meetings <Yeah>

Test cards, all of these things. I'm curious to know, um, and, and hoping that you can explain a little bit more to our listeners as well, how this preference, um, in addition to it being just a hurdle in terms of, you know, understanding an industry that is brand new to you mm-hmm. How that might relate also to, um, neurodiversity and if it does at all, and why you feel like that's like important to you.

NP (00:20:12):

Yeah. Yeah. I think that one thing, like I work a lot, um, in my current role. Um, it's not, it's not part of the job description, it's part of the employee, um, resource groups that we have at New Relic. But one of the things is like, you know, talking to people about accommodations and things that they might need. And I think the difficult thing is that people tend to, um, be thinking of accommodations and accessing things like that. Like an accommodation for me is, I need to know, I need you to tell me what we're doing. Not in a vague way, not in a we'll figure it out, but in a very explicit, can you give me, is there an itinerary I can see, is there a syllabus we're gonna be following? Is there some way for me to really, because, um, with Neurodiversity autism and ADHD especially, um, part of, um, of a very common kind of piece, it's kinda like a, a smorgasbord of different things.

It's not like mild to severe when you have something, it's like, oh, you have, you know, chocolate chips and pretzels on your, uh, neurodivergent, uh, profile, but then this other person has pineapple and cherries and neither is wrong or more severe. But one of the things that is often on people's kind of frozen yogurt cup, um, is that, um, transitions are really difficult. And, uh, I think they call it, um, it's like social imagining. I think I could be wrong on that term mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But, um, it is being able to, when someone says, you know, we're gonna go out to brunch tomorrow. And for a lot of people, they've gone out to brunch before, right? They've gone to brunch by themselves. They've gone with that group before, so they have a picture, even if it's not the same, they're like, oh, we went to that place and I ordered these kinds of foods, and my friends were there, and here's what the environment was like.

It was kind of noisy. And, and, you know, maybe I'll bring some headphones if I'm, you know, overstimulated. But if you're being invited to something that you don't know, it's very hard to imagine a thing. It's like, think of a color that doesn't exist, and you're like, mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, and so a lot of the times for things like interviewing for things like anticipating jobs, you know, the idea of being in an office, it's like, I'm not scared of office chairs. I'm not afraid of a desk. I don't, it's not a problem for me to chat with someone and say, Hey, you know, uh, my chair's squeaking. Uh, do we have anything for that? Do we have a maintenance person that could hand me some WD 40, whatever? But the hard thing is I, if I sit there, where will it be? Will there be people behind me?

Will they, will I sit in an open room because I, I think I'd want to like put, get headphones, or will I be in my own office? I don't know. And there's so much environmental stuff that goes into it, and it can be a real strong sig, you know, uh, if you're asking about these things in a job interview, these are really specific things that people are likely to give a very broad answer for. And if those details matter to you and help you, like that is an accommodation. But I think a lot of the times when people are assessing jobs, like, okay, it's an office job. Mm-hmm. They ask, what, what's engineering? Like, that's an office job. It's like, that doesn't tell me anything. <laugh>. I do not know. Um, yeah. So I think that, you know, when people are trying to have equitable access to, um, interviewing, to jobs, to just even coming to the table with that and knowing what their needs might be, it could be really hard because some people think that they're failing at, well, you know, how hard could it be to insert anything mm-hmm.

Anything at all of any level. And, you know, so I think with, um, with being neurodivergent, it's, it's, um, it's just really difficult to know that that is an accommodation and to even try to craft that. And it's so early on in the process, and you're already probably worrying about, am I giving the employer the impression that I'll be a difficult person to work with? Am I, you know, 'cause it's like, oftentimes once I'm set up, I'm set. Yeah. I have no further questions. I like the thing I'm doing. I, I tend to like a lot of repetitive tasks where other coworkers are like, we've done that three times. I'm so bored. I'm like, I'd love to take that task because I love doing something familiar that makes me feel good. So I'd love to take that on. You know, and it's like, yeah. I dunno if that perfectly answers your question, but I'm happy to drill in. 

AN (00:24:35):

No. Yeah, it, it, it definitely does. I, you know, just, just listening to that, I was also kind of like, what I'm curious to know is also just around like, when you're on the job and there's like accommodations that you could be thinking about and asking for, and like information. Um, and, and that's not to say that that is, um, simpler or easier by any means, but I'm also thinking about like, um, especially with the PDXWIT community, there's a lot of folks, um, just in this network that I know are trying to make transitions, um, similar to the way that you just have a completely different industry into this. And, um, you know, I can say even for, for me, I, I've been in tech for a few years, but I more recently, um, pivoted into a product manager role, which mm-hmm. <affirmative> is another role in tech that is, uh, in my opinion, a little ambiguous. Especially if you have not done that role in the past. It can, especially when you see it on paper, it can feel a little bit like, all that sounds cool, but what does that actually translate to, you know?

And so I'm curious, especially with coming in from, from your background and even as, you know, if you were to direct this advice or, um, if you have any advice for people that are even just starting kind of from the very start and trying to make this pivot. Like how they can go about trying to get this kind of information if they too, are similar in the ways of their thinking and wanting to have more of this detail, like you were saying. So for example, um, for me, I would get on YouTube and watch vlogs of product managers because I was like, I just wanna see a day to day, like, what do you do in a day? 'cause I'm kind of confused about this in its entirety. And so, um, I don't know if you have any feedback like that for, for others that might be in, in a role similar to yours and how they can go about trying to get that additional detail for themselves.

NP (00:26:30):

Yeah. That's an awesome question. I would say, um, I did, I did a little bit of that. I did a little bit of like, day in the life software engineer YouTube searches. I did a lot of like, how do I, I figure out, right?

<Yeah>

Um, so I think that that's, that was reasonable because I wanted to see people who, I really just wanted someone to speak in a way that seemed unscripted. Like they weren't trying to promote their company. Yeah. Who was just like, today I googled, this is the dumbest thing I've ever Googled in this month, and I Googled it four times. We dunno how I kept searching that same term, you know, and going, oh, right. Like, you're a person. Like I'm a person. I need to see that. Yeah, you could be a person I would work with, not because I'm looking to work at your company or trying to work with you specifically, but, um, like I said, like that kind of social imagining that sort of idea of, oh, that sounds like a thing. I've said, I've looked up the world's dumbest things of like, how to boil an egg.

I, you know, and it's like, it's not that I'm fully incapable of working in a kitchen in a moment, but like, you know, um, being able to, um, see that. So that is one, one aspect I think that's great to kind of get the window shopping and just to hear people talk about their jobs and be like, does that sound like a thing that would sound good to me? Does that sound like something positive? Um, do, do those people sound like anyone I know. Um, and if you know anyone in tech, that's often a really good place to start, um, for a lot of, but not all, of course. Uh, but for a lot of, um, neurodivergent folks, uh, online is actually a great networking tool and not networking in, in the go get a job way, but in the, there are a lot of, a lot of neurodivergent people in tech, um, that it, it is one of those places that often celebrates kind of out of the box thinking and conversely very in the box specific thinking.

So there's a lot of ways to thrive in that way. And, um, so finding that, finding either, you know, p D x Witt, you've got, uh, like Slack communities online, you have, I think Discord is a pretty big one for much less formal, but like a lot of the times you'll end up knowing people who are in software engineering, not because you're talking to them about that, but because like, oh, do you know someone who's like, does a lot of knitting, you know, what takes a lot of math and repetition and is likely to keep you quiet and alone it's knitting, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> or something like that, where you're going, oh, there's a lot of people where you start to go, these Venn diagrams might overlap. Yeah. <laugh>. And so I did a decent amount of that. I talked to anyone in my friend group who had done it, who had like friends or partners or close family who had done it.

And I was like, you know, what, is it really like, can you walk me through, like, if it's, can you show me something that's not like confidential company information, but like, can you pull up your laptop and be, be like, is this, do you get your assignments through the email? I sound like I've never touched a computer, but like, can you show me what that's like? Like how do you know what you do every day? Because in the morning I have my tasks at my old job. So like, what is the thing? Um, and then I think, I think after that you might be able to find things like, um, I looked up a lot of memes and humor relating to it, <laugh>, not because I was gonna get them really well, but because I started to go, well, what are some common jokes? 'cause like in healthcare, it's not, you don't have to have done the job to be like, oh, this is like, this is a funny meme about how, you know, you're like, I put enough gloves in my pocket, and they're like, no, I didn't.

Oh no. At the worst possible time. And it's like, you can still get a sense of, oh, timing's important. Supply is important. No, anticipating unforeseen events is important. Yeah. Not because I've been in a hospital maybe, but because the jokes are kind of centering around. And so when I looked up things about software engineering, a lot of the humor was centered around having something, almost a thing, but not quite a thing. And spending a lot of time being like, these two things are so close, why is it not the same? You know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I'm like, oh, really? Detail oriented work. 

<Yeah>

Uh, running into frustration often and how you handle frustration and how it seems absurd that this thing that seems so easy when, you know, whatever a product manager is, dunno what that is, but like, whatever that is says you can do this. And then you're like, Hmm, this doesn't work. You know? And so when, um, when I saw so in, and that wasn't like a primary source of information for me, but it was really supplemental once people started talking about their jobs. Um, and I kind of got those like in informational interviews with people, like, what is your job? What do you do? And one half the people are like, I don't even know. And you're like, okay, cool. A lot of ambiguity, lot of, lot of dealing with things that are a little hard to understand. Okay. And every single person's, like, I feel like I just don't know anything ever. And I was like, okay, so that's probably gonna, how good am I at not feeling like I don't know stuff for like, my whole career? Could I do that or what I hate every day? You know? And so that to me helped me to piece together an idea. It was very different once I got in, but it still had like, oh, I kind of, I, those jokes make more sense now that meme is actually funnier now, or 

<Yeah. Yeah.>

AN (00:32:02):

That's awesome. I I love those. Um, I love those suggestions. I, I would've never thought to look at it that way. I, but that's, um, yeah. I mean, especially the memes thing, like the, the fact that you were able to extrapolate from that, which makes a lot of sense as you're explaining it, like the, the, the detail that you can gather from that is, um, yeah. That's amazing. And I think, um, yeah. I I just feel like that's, uh, there's, there's so much to what you just mentioned, even in terms of like informational, like interviews with people. 'cause I, 'cause um, as you were saying that, I was thinking about how when I've tried to schedule that with other folks and, and they're always, you know, gracious and like willing to mm-hmm. <affirmative> to talk about it, which is a amazing, um, but one thing I've noticed with folks that have been in it for a long time is they also kind of speak in more engaging <Yes..> terms, because they're just, you know, that's <laugh>. Like, they're kind of, they just don't get to that level of detail. So I, I love that you mentioned that idea of like maybe scheduling something with someone, especially that you're closer with that you can ask to potentially like almost shadow them in a sense. 

And like <Yeah> try to really get a sense of like, you know, their calendar and how much time, because I know for me, um, the other thing that I think about often is like, how much, um, you know, work-life balance does a job like this have mm-hmm. <affirmative>. 'cause that's for me is a value, right? And so being able to really get a sense of like, shadowing someone and seeing like, okay, is this person just like working my 12 hours a day? Yeah. Like, is that the kind of job they have? Is that like mm-hmm. Because if that's a value to you, it might be a bit of a deal breaker that that could be a part of the job.

<Yeah> But, and so yeah, I think that's a great way to look at it.  

<Yeah>

NP (00:33:47):

It was much more about the rapport that I had with the person and much less about what they like, I was like, okay, you work in, 'cause if they told me their title, yeah. I'm like, I don't know. The difference between software developer, developer engineer, software engineer, are they different titles? And if you ask anyone in the industry, they also don't know. So, you know, the main thing was how comfortable was I going to the person being like, so, you know, I don't mean this in, in an offensive way, but you just sit around and like type, and they're like, basically, and also, here's the thing. And so like, I would have people show me like, here's what I worked on. This menu exists. And I'm like, you made a menu. And it's like, yeah. It's like, and that took me a year of work.

I'm like, it took you a year to make a menu <laugh>. And you know, just like, um, I do, uh, or used to, uh, before Covid, but, um, do acrobatics. And, um, when I first saw like silks, which is like the kind of <inaudible> like fabric hanging from the thing, and you know, I'm like, okay, well, you know, I mean, you have to be strong, but once you get strong, I'm sure climbing is easy. And then someone's like, here's the move I've been working on for four years. And you're like, you've been working on that for four years, and the second you do ha one second of that move, you're like, oh, well it's gonna take me 10 years. So that's cool. Yeah. That's cool. I suddenly have, like, I already had respect for the thing folks did, but I was like, oh, they're like, yeah, if you wanna try it, I would love to share the shenanigans that this is.

And I'm like, okay, that's great. And it's like, why, why is it so hard to just like, have the computer say hello, world? Why is that so hard? Why did it take me three hours of reading documentation to get the computer to do that? And it's like, yeah, but that gets way easier. The problems don't ever stop being hard though, you know? So I think that it's much more about being able to have that candor with someone and just ask truly the most basic questions about like, are you in an office, like a cubicle? Is it like, when I see a picture of an office, is it my doctor's office to set up like, what's happening? And just have someone be like, it is like this. Let me draw you a diagram. And thankfully a lot of people in tech are like, I love explaining stuff. 'cause that's like 60% of my job at any given moment is just trying to tell you a thing that I know and put it into your brain, so,

AN (00:36:03):

Right. <Yeah>  Right. <laugh>, that's, yeah. That's hilarious. And yeah, so true. And I, and I feel like definitely, definitely being able to leverage those kinds of connections for those sorts of questions. Um,

<Yeah> <laugh> uh, is, is great. <laugh>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

<laugh>. Um, I, so I wanna switch gears just a little bit, um, to, uh, the fact like, so you lead an accessibility ERG, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you were talking about ERGs earlier. And, and, and the ERG that you lead is focused on neurodiversity and merged with like disability access. Um, and you were mentioning that some of the work that you're doing is creating a training program for managers, um, around accommodations and around the neurodiversity. Uh, like, and folks that come from that, you know, have that background mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm curious to know, um, you know, how, um, how, how you stumbled into that and like how you started being able to get involved with all of that. Could you talk a little bit more about it?

NP (00:37:02):

Yeah. It was a wild ride. Uh, I, so I had been at the company for maybe a year, year and a half. And there was this, um, ERG that was kind of focused on exclusively, uh, neurodiversity. And I had kind of joined as just like, oh, I'm just here in the Slack channel. Like, and it was basically a ghost town. And I think that because I joined, um, post like the onset of covid, we were fully remote. And I think that, um, that was just one of those things that just kind of was like, people had a lot of interest in it, and then remote happened and everyone just kind of were like, we're in a whole new universe now, and whoever's maintaining this really isn't. And so I was kinda like, well, it's here. And we have other, um, employee resource groups that mm-hmm.

<affirmative> I'm also a part of that are more active. So like, I'll just be here, just kind of like, I live in the ghost town. Um, and then one of the, uh, leaders was like, Hey, would you like to join the leadership team? And I was like, well, I've been here a year and a half, and like, I'm still learning so much stuff about engineering, and it would be great to be able to exercise all the skills that I have from my decade of being, you know, a great employee. It'd be great to be able to put those to use as well as, you know, being kind of the like, baby. Like, I don't know. I don't wanna do the code. So I was like, that, that'd be great. <laugh>. Um, so I joined and then it was like, yeah, and also no one else is here and do you wanna take it over?

I'm also leaving. I was like, that's fair. That's fair. It takes a ton of effort and energy. Yeah. And so when I got there, I was like, okay, all right, so I'm gonna leave this thing. And so I'm, I'll start, I guess I, I honestly just started searching what is and what is a resource group? What do they do? How do you make one? Yeah. What's in it, you know, the way I have always learned, which is teaching myself. Uh, and so then I started to write a charter and in the middle of writing this charter, 'cause I'm like, okay, here's what I need to make sure we don't do. Mm-hmm. I need to make sure that this does not become a, are you depressed? Have you tried company sponsored yoga (™)? Because like, it's great to have those wellness offerings, don't get me wrong.

Yeah. But it is very frustrating to have people who do not have the things that are going on with you that is not what's going on for them. And they're trying to give you, ha, eat some kale, do some yoga. Have you thought of being mindful? It's like, that's great. And if that speaks to people, I think they should absolutely go for it. But that does not, that doesn't do it for a lot of people, or that is only a very small drop in a much bigger bucket of addressing like structural inequality, <laugh> and fundamental differences of the brain. So,

<Yeah>

Um, so right around the time I'm drafting that story, be like, okay, here's what we stand for. Here's what we do, here's what we don't do. Kind of writing that, um, I was like, you know, it's really hard to talk about neurodiversity while not also talking about disability. Um, and there's a lot, a lot, a lot of stuff to talk about there. There's a lot of things going on. You have people from the perspective of, I am not, there is nothing, air quotes, wrong with me. There is not, it is not wrong that I am neurodivergent. And I'm like, I agree. And also there are people going, there is not anything wrong with people who have disabilities. And so kind of, it's, it's like two groups that are very intersectional who are trying to have their own independent, like, you don't want people going, oh, you, you're afflicted with a different way of thinking.

And it's like, that is who I am. And that is a cultural thing that is, that is not the same as, you know, I have broken my leg. These are different things. But also it, there is not some sort of thing that is like, you've broken your leg and you're kind of the worst person now this is a bad thing. Like, and so at the same time, they're kind of having some conflicting needs. I was like, well, I wanna make sure, because when people start talking about neurodiversity, that covers a lot of things. That covers Tourette's, that covers epilepsy, that covers, uh, traumatic brain injury. And so you have some folks who are like, I have ADHD sometimes that's great. Sometimes it's really hard and, you know, but it makes, I get to do a lot with the way that I interact, especially in the engineering field.

Mm-hmm. <affirmative> My unique outlook and perspective can be celebrated a lot of the time. Yeah. And a traumatic brain injury may not be receiving that same kind of reception for what's going on for them. So, um, so around that time we had another group of people in the company who were like, there's no disability representation in the resource groups. And so I was like, Hey, hey, we should, this should all be one thing. And I was like, and mental health should be in there. So instead of doing one, we kind of wrapped in this, the, the like three kind of pillars of it. And so, um, doing that helped to kind of unify a lot of things because now looking for equitable access, it's not, oh, is it equitable access in the disability? Is it for mental health? What's the difference between mental health and disability?

Uh, the ADA, like, there's so much going on there. So it was kind of, it really consolidated a lot. And one of the things I really wanted was to see more like intersectional solidarity. I wanted people to be able to support each other and be like, I, I don't want people to see autism as something to be cured, but that's only my perspective. And I also wanna celebrate that there are people who are living with chronic pain that are like, I would love a cure for this. And that we can, yeah. We can all be supporting each other in this. And this doesn't need to be us competing for which one is Right. We are, we all have great perspectives. So, yeah. Um, so in that vein, uh, I was working towards kind of trying to educate managers because a lot of the times, um, underrepresented people end up being the ones who have to do this kind of like, I'll just educate my manager.

And you're coming from a position that is disempowered. You are coming from a trying to, you know, hopefully your manager's awesome and cares super much, but also sometimes ignorance doesn't mean they're, they're mean, but they can still do real damage. And so I was like, why do we not have a training that's focused on what this is? Our trainings are kind of click through this thing. Here's a, here's a person who is kind of like, here's an actor. I don't know if they are actually like part of the community or not. And they're kind of doing a very stereotypical representation of someone who's autistic, and they're like, this person's not so good at the people side, but I'm like, this training, can't, you know, this, this is old. This came with like a company that was trying to do our trainings and like, that's let's, we could do better, uh, if we want.

We are great people. We are good at our jobs. We should also have, if you wanna attract top talent, you should have top resources. And so, um, that was kind of my pitch was like, we're the best. Why don't we have the best training and <laugh>? And so like, yeah. So, um, we got a, uh, a consulting place and it was like, come consult with us. There were a bunch of people. So again, it wasn't, it wasn't just me being magically perfect at everything, but there were so many people that reached out to help, um, especially in our DE&I and kind of like HR sphere of folks going like, oh yeah, manager trains. I'm like, where's legal? Where's compliance? You know? And so, um, yeah.

But we got that, um, published out, and so now we're working on more things that one kind of focused on disability, touched a little bit on neurodiversity and mental health, and then was a lot about like management and a d a and accommodations. And that's like a big piece of it also coming up is like, cool mental health, how are we gonna, you know? So, um, yeah. And that was the goal was that people from a less empowered position and individual contributors who are not managing people could say, my manager's kind of not getting it. I'm already, I already need accommodations. I don't, I don't have the spoons, the bandwidth to ask them to then get all this information and compile them links and get them sympathetic to my cause. And I'm like, great, here's a tool. Just say, Hey, manager, here you go. Can you take this? And like, that will help answer the manager's questions. And that gives you a tool, you as an individual person, a tool to bubble that information up. And also we can make this training, you know, mandatory across all management, but for people who are already here who might've missed it or, you know, that's available mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So.

AN (00:45:38):

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's, that's amazing. Um, <laugh> and that's also, uh, a lot encompassed in when ERG and, um, you know, I, I've heard from other folks, and I think even PDXWIT has done, um, kind of like some education around like just folks that are leading employee resource groups mm-hmm. <affirmative> at their organizations. And, um, and a lot of organizations, at least to my knowledge, like leading an ERG like you're doing is a voluntary thing, so you're not necessarily getting compensated, compensated more mm-hmm. <affirmative> or that work. Okay. Um, and so, you know, I, I can only imagine like how rewarding like doing this work is and having, especially this kind of training that you are working on creating within your organization must be. Um, but I would also assume there's some challenges that, that come with that. And, and more specifically, um, in regards to just burning out, um, or having burnout. 

And it kind of sounds like even when you came on board to this, uh, specific ERG, there are folks that were like, like almost waiting to hand over some stuff for you after probably having been involved with it for a while on a voluntary basis. Yeah. Um, but I'm curious to know, um, how you go about approaching this sort of a, you know, like voluntary role within your organization while also ensuring that you're not getting burnt out and balancing that with, um, making sure that the employee resource group is still able to operate in, in full capacity as far as a peer support group goes.

NP (00:47:14):

Yeah. Um, I love this question because I put so much thought into it. Um, so one of the things that when I joined, I went, wait, we should be taking a model of like disability inclusion. And you know what the, the model over in that, that class, no one's going, well, what you should do is do it by yourself and never ask for help. That's how disability is. Like, everyone else is like community care. This is the whole thing, like having that sort of mutual aid, having your networks, having your support team. And so I'm like, why in mm-hmm. <affirmative>, why in the world would we be having one sole person who is volunteering in addition to their full-time thing they got hired on to do. So, I said, I think we should have two people at a minimum. Also, I, as a single entity, cannot be the voice of every possible intersection.

It stresses me out to think that I am not able to bring in a person who, you know, I, like, we don't have any, like in the, um, at the time we didn't have any people of color leading it. And I'm like, that's a bit, I don't, I can't, I can't have that perspective on behalf, you know, I can do tons of research, I can be like as, as sensitive and thoughtful and trying to learn, but that does not give me those experiences. And so we, um, have or had a really awesome person in our, I think technical writing team, uh, Franz Knupfer, and he, um, is a deaf man who, um, was doing great work and he was like, I'd like to co help co-lead. And I was like, that's awesome. That is amazing. That brings in so much perspective that like, you know, I, I just couldn't have gotten, I, I just did not have.

And so he really helped bring a lot more life into the disability aspect. And one thing we did was, hey, I know that there's gonna be a season where technical writing, you are gonna have like some sort of thing in our company where you're gonna be super swamped. And it is unlikely that I will also be super swamped, right? So instead of trying to make sure that this falls on one single person who is volunteering shoulders, I will make up for your thing. You will make up for mine, and we will create a, a community. And then we have, um, kind of a leadership committee, which is also voluntary, but it's, it's helpful to be like, okay, I'm in charge of running the meetings, holding people accountable, doing that management piece, but I'm not in charge of having every idea. I'm not in charge of reviewing every single thing.

I'm gonna say, Hey, so and so you joined the leadership. And like, um, so that was one thing is I wasn't the sole person. And when I joined, I'm like, I think every employee resource group should have at least two depending on the size. You know, we start out, it was like a hundred people and now it's like 300 plus people once we like, kind of reinvigorated it and, and folded the other kind of pillars of it in there. And so I'm like, everyone should be doing this because when someone is like, I'm a little burnt out, I need to take the day off. You're not, you know, quote, letting down people or something. You know, you're not feeling like the weight of the entire resource group for your employees is resting on your shoulders. 'cause that's absurd and that leads to burnout so quickly.

Um, so that's one thing. Another thing is I decided to have it be, um, for me, a year of service. Like I said, I'm not gonna sign up for this in perpetuity. I, my engineering is like, I came in from a bootcamp. I have so much to learn and that takes so much energy. And what I wanna do is be able to, you know, pay it forward to the people at my company who are in a, a similar position as me who need support. I wanna be able to have that out there. And that's amazing. And I am not a magical fountain of energy <laugh>. I'm a, a human person who needs to do a lot of sleeping, and I get overstimulated, I get tired, you know, so, mm-hmm. Um, so I said, you know, and instead of what, what I saw happen, which was someone who really cared really deeply, would step up to leadership, would put their all into it, and it would be work, it would be a full-time job, and they would get burnt out, and then they would feel bad, and then they would quit the ERG and they would quit the company.

I'm like, this is what, no, that's just not sustainable at all, but I understand. 'cause I've burnt out in, in previous jobs mm-hmm. Where you're like, I'm not do, I'm not burning out because I hate stuff. I'm burning out because I care so much and I can't do everything I wanna do. Yeah. And so I'm like, I'm gonna do a year, and that year is also going to be put on, I keep a Google document of, um, everything I do, especially achievements. So when I told my manager, Hey, I know that I'm not learning as fast in this technical role because I'm also making this ERG, I'm kind of just spinning it up from nothing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, and I'm like, but I did present to our C-suite. Like I just had to get on a Zoom call. I don't even know what a C-suite is. Half the, I'm like, what did you do? Why? What is it? Is it, do we have an A suite? I don't get what this is. You know? Yeah. I had no idea, but I was like, whatever. These are very important people, I guess. Uh, I, I'm feral. I came from shift work. I met my manager and that was it. I I never met anyone above her, you know? Um, but yeah,

Once I was able to say like, and I'm going to implement a training that will impact you, a manager, because my contribution, she was like, oh, wow, you're, that's a lot. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. Here's the roadmap I created out of an idea I had through just imagining. And here is how I have implemented that roadmap due to just having an idea and holding people accountable and managing. And she's like, yeah, that's like, great. And so being able to show that those were actionable things, that that wasn't just me doing a thing that was fun to just, just for the enjoyment of it. Like I have a great time with it. Yeah. But, um, and then instead of, you know, I wasn't burnt out, but I was getting a little tired after the one year mark. It's a lot of energy not just to keep something running, but to start it from scratch.

And so I was able to hand that off and say, I know that at this date, at the next year, I am going to transition this off. So let's call for people three months in advance. Yeah. Let's have me onboard them so that it's not, they're not having the same problem. And then when I stepped down, I was like, oh, no. I'm like, this isn't because I'm quitting quitting. This is because I want to stay unburnt out. And that means doing things that are sustainable. And this is how, like, I have seen a lot of the disability community going. Yeah. Instead of pushing yourself until you fail, go, Hey, that's not great. I, why would I do that? To me, I am a person. I deserve care and respect. And so yeah. I'm going to stop before my limit because you can have boundaries before you break down, you know? So, um,

AN (00:53:52):

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I love all of those points. Um, <laugh>, I think that's a great, like, very actionable way to put it in terms of like, what I feel like people can, can actually take away from this and what they can do in order to prevent that burnout. Because I hear that phrase like, you know, lean in and lean out. Like, I kind like referring to like leaning in when you have that capacity to give Sure. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> your time and your energy, and then like, leaning out when you need to take that break. But I feel like what's missing in a phrase like that, or any sort of like, um, language like that is that understanding of like what you're saying there about, like, I've always known that I was in it for like a year to be able to take charge and, you know, really build this thing, but I also have the state in which I'm going to kind of lean out.

Um, and yeah. Let someone else take over, I think is a great way to, to look at just like in general, um, any sort of volunteer initiative or role that you're taking on in addition to the, your, you know, day job and what you're doing on a day to day Yeah. Within an organization. So I, <yeah> I love that. I think that's great. Um, yeah. I, so I am also curious, um, that this is gonna be my, my my last question, uh, for you before we have to, to wrap unfortunately. But, um, it, like, throughout our conversation, one thing that was coming to mind is just the, the shift to also, um, remote work, specifically in the tech industry, um, where a lot of companies, obviously during the pandemic were forced to reevaluate how they had their workers, um, work and have had to adapt to be able to, um, you know, um, comply with, uh, COVID guidelines.

Um, I'm curious now that that conversation is starting to become like a bigger one in terms of what certain companies are choosing to do in, in regards to hybrid work or maybe even full-time back in the office versus the companies that are remaining remote. What insights, um, you might have about that work from home? I guess, um, I don't wanna call it an accommodation, but like that work from, from home setup versus like, you know, companies that are, uh, wanting to get employees back into the office, especially in regards to the conversation we've been having today around, um, you know, folks that have a neurodivergent background or accommodations that are necessary and how this sort of, uh, you know, setup might impact what they are or not able to, to do with that kind of a, a setup.

NP (00:56:38):

Yeah. I mean, you know, for my own personal opinion of like, I can't, why would we go <laugh>? Like you could, you could just not have this whole office. And, and I understand that also, you know, I, I've actually seen this in kind of the, some folks who are like, I'm autistic and if a single overhead light happens, I'm going to scream. I'm like, that is an extremely relatable thing. I've had other folks who are like, I'm ADHD and I'm out there trying to focus, but like, I'm at home and then I go, oh, wait, I need to clean the gutters. And then before I know it, I'm of in the middle of 20 tasks and I didn't get my job done, and I really need to have body doubling. I need to have accountability. I need to have a change in environment to help cue me.

So I do think that it is, um, like, I don't think it's unreasonable to say there are, there are lots of different ways that accommodations can happen. And for some people, you know, being able to work alongside people. Like we're, um, one thing that we're starting to talk about, um, in the ERG at work and just broadly, is virtual body doubling, saying, why don't we hop on a zoom call and I'm here and we don't, we can be doing work together, but like, this keeps my accommodation of like, I need to be wearing very comfortable clothes. I need a heating pad. I need my special chair. If my environment changes, I'll suddenly forget to eat because my, like, everything that cues me of my environment to go and eat lunch is gone. And now I'm hungry, everything's bad. And my coworker who's like, but if I don't talk to someone, I'll be very lonely.

And also I'll kind of do 10,000 things. I'm like, Hey, are you still working on the thing? And you know, my coworker's like, oh, dang it. Yeah. Yep, yep. I'm going back to it. You know? And so, um, yeah. But I think that, you know, if I were, if I were joining a team or a company where they had like any sort of accommodation or flexibility around the role, I think I would want, I'd point them to like the studies that have been done on how it did not impact performance. It did not like, you know, and for some people it does, but those people know that, and they don't want to, it's not people who are like, I want to work remote and it is bad for me. People are wanting, people want to do good work regardless of what is going on in their lives.

They want to be able to do the work that is meaningful to them, that feels like productive and fun and great and interesting. That's like engineering, the tech field. You don't get people there who are like, I just like being bored and I hate everything, but that's not a thing. You know? So, um, so for that, I'd be showing studies, I'd be saying, you know, this Yeah. Is this allows me to create accommodations without needing managerial oversight. This allows some people to access in-home caregivers, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because, you know, trying to get a caregiver on the bus to help manage a wheelchair to help with, um, like peritoneal dialysis, which like, sorry, everyone's gonna have to search that on online. But, you know, these are so many things that allow people to do excellent work and have their work be their focus instead of their focus being, you know, every time I go, I'm really hungry and I'm tired and I'm dizzy.

I guess I'm just bad at this job. It's like, are you or are you not being accommodated? Because if you had an environment that suited you, if you were able to go, I work really well when my friend comes over to my house and my friend knows to be like, did you remember to eat? You know, or whatever it is. <Yeah> Um, so I think that for, for accessibility for the future of like, tech work in general, like remote is amazing. And I didn't wanna go remote at first. I would, I had never done it. And so I was like, I can't imagine onboarding to a brand new team <Yeah>.

To, and, and you mailed me a laptop and then you're just gonna email me a password the night of like, what is going on? This feels so removed. And I thought I was gonna fail in the role. I was like, I don't even know. I don't even know. That's ridiculous. Uh, and it has been amazing. I have had so much more energy. I have not had to go and ask for a bunch of environmental co like accommodations or to say, Hey, I need everyone on my team to stop looking at me. I just need to show off my camera so I can like, cry in peace because I frustrated myself on a code problem. I can go, I need to lay down in a bed.

<Yeah>

There's nothing, I'm not having a crisis. I just need to lay down for three minutes. I got so scared the first time I presented at work. Um, 'cause I also have anxiety, uh, that I had to lay down on my office floor afterwards for like a solid five minutes. I told my manager, I'm like, I just, I know I wasn't being productive. And he is like, first off, you can do whatever you want. You're great. You're doing fine. And secondly, if you need to lay down after that, that's fine. I was like, wow. That just wasn't even a big deal. But I couldn't do that in office. Yeah. I couldn't be like, Hey, everyone. And then just be like, and now and just lay down on the ground <laugh>. That wouldn't work. People would not be like, oh, Noah taking the accommodations they need. Right on. They'd be like, what are you doing? It'd be like, floor time. That's what I need. Um, oh my God. So yeah, I think, I think people wanna do their best work, and I think it enables people, and we have a lot of proof to show that for the people who are requesting it, it's, it's awesome. And like there is no reason not to, and we should do it all the time. Yeah. <laugh>.

AN (01:01:53):

Yeah. Um, yeah, I, I, I agree with so much of what you're saying. I, I feel like it's, it's an interesting topic whenever it does come up, which has been more, um, more often recently due to just the nature of like, the, the pandemic, the pandemic stuff just sub subsiding a little bit, and folks wanting to, to go back into the office and making use of their, their office spaces. Um, but yeah, I, I just see so many use cases that are in the favor of folks that need all sorts of different accommodations, smaller, big, and <Yeah>

You know, as you were talking about that, it kind of reminded me about how even for me, I, I feel, you know, totally comfortable speaking on mm-hmm. <affirmative> on a call like this. Yeah. But then if I'm presenting to a very large group, but I do have anxiety and, um, yeah. It takes me a few minutes to get into the rhythm of what I'm about to present or talk about. Yeah. And a few minutes I find the words just kind of flying out of my head. So I'm like there, but I'm like forgetting what I'm supposed to be saying or talking about it. <Yeah> And it's been such a game changer for me working remote and just like virtually presenting stuff to have like a, um, a notepad or something up on the side of my screen that I can sometimes look at and just be like, okay, that's, I can stay on track. Like I'm, and that makes me like so much less anxious going into it already knowing that I have that, those tools at my disposal. Because in a professional environment, it's very rare that you see someone standing up there with like note cards or something. Yeah. You know? <Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.>

So, yeah, it's just, um, it, it's interesting to me like the, the conversation around it because I, I see so many different, um, benefits of being able to do that. But also I, I was just curious from, you know, your perspective, what that was like. But thanks, thanks so much for, for talking through that.

NP (01:03:47):

Yeah, no, totally. I, I told my manager, uh, before I present, I was like, I did it once. I was like, I need you to tell me what I'm gonna talk about, and then I'm gonna write a script and I'm gonna look like I'm looking at people's eyes and I'm gonna move the notepad near my webcam. Yeah. And then, and everyone was like, wow, you delivered that so well. I'm like, thanks. I literally wrote down every like, and comment and pause so that I would sound natural because I, I'm like panic, sweating through my shirt and like, I'm shaky. Yeah. And it's just like, I, I presented, uh, at my, um, at my bootcamp graduation, and they were like, okay. And I was so stressed, I don't know what I said. Yeah. I don't know anything. And it was like, it was a miserable, like, I was like, cool, I learned to code. That's exciting. But once I get this presentation over with, I need to lay down because it was so stressful. Yeah. And I was like that if that had been virtual, if I was able to go, Hey, I'm gonna pace around my room, I'm gonna lay down on my bed for a second and just be like, you're okay, you got this. Yeah. I think it would've been totally different. And now that we have that ability, I'm like, please keep this available forever. And always <laugh>. 

AN (01:04:54):

Yeah. Absolutely. And it, you know, it makes me think too, like the, like what you're saying about, you know, everyone wants to do their best work and they wanna feel good about the work that they're delivering. And that includes, even in this small example, like presenting to people can, if, if you're very daunted about it and you're, um, having to do this in person and that's not something that, you know, is, um, like really helps like accommodate what you need <Yeah.> In terms of how to do that well. Um, you, you know, like you're saying, like having that notepad up and being able to do it <Yeah.> And then getting that feedback of like, oh, you did a really great job. Mm-hmm. Feels really good and kind of like continues to like validate that you're doing what you can to even overcome some of these things. <Yeah.> That might be workplace anxieties, um, versus having to be forced to do it in person and then feeling like, oh my gosh, I just <Yeah.> could've done that better. You know, <laugh>.

NP (01:05:47):

Yeah. Yeah. It's like people were like, you're doing this so much better. I'm like, I am, like, this accommodation is, is unambiguously allowing me to do what I like, I've got the great ideas in here. Right. But if I'm having a panic attack, those ideas won't come out. We will not get my most best self because I will be going, am I making eye contact? Is my voice at the right level? How do I hold a microphone? And instead, I could actually be doing my job. I could be telling people information in a way that they understand. That's clear. Because I could rehearse it, I could write it down, you know, and I'm like, just give this to everyone. Let everyone do it. <laugh>, <laugh>. So, yeah.

AN (01:06:25):

Yeah. Absolutely. Um, well, Noah, I could sit here and talk you for, for many, many more hours and ask you so many more questions, <laugh>. But, um, but unfortunately we're coming close to the end of our segment. And, um, before we go, I wanted to give you an opportunity to, to talk about or mention any, um, piece of advice or just a call to action or thoughts that you wanna leave our listeners with today.

NP (01:06:52):

Yeah. Yeah. I, I've been, I've been thinking about it and I kind of went with like the first thing that jumped to my mind, which was encouraging people. I think that a lot of the times when people say networking, they think about, you know, going to a meetup and handing out business cards or contacting people on LinkedIn, and that's got its place. Sure. But I think what I would encourage people the most, especially people who are underrepresented in tech, especially people who have an intersection of disability and neurodivergence and like any of those things that are going on, but for everyone as well, um, to community build, you know, you don't need to want to work at someone's company or to, to need something from them in order to provide mentorship in that community. And that is a much bigger safety net because when I go, is anyone else, you know, freaking out on their calls, it's very helpful for me to have my other friends who are autistic, who have anxiety disorders, who have ADHD to when I say, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm making an ERG, what do I put in there?

You know, to say, oh, well we have one of those at work and I don't really know what it does. I'm like, we should probably know. You know? So really build up your community, not so that you can be served by it in your career, but because like the more community you have, the more insulated you are from like, huge problems, huge setbacks because you have those people. And the more you create that safety for others, that net of people who have got one another, whether it's, you know, driving over a gallon of water to your neighbor who's living in their van, or whether it is being a part of a mentorship program where someone goes, I don't know. I don't think I'm good in the tech field. I think I should quit my job. And saying, I feel that way a lot, and I'm here with you with your feelings. Maybe I can't fix 'em and I don't have to have the answers, but you don't have to go it alone. Um, I think that staying connected is like such a meaningful thing, and I think over, over anything else that, that would be what I chose to do. So

AN (01:08:55):

That's amazing, <laugh>, thank you. And that's, that's great advice. And it ties in perfectly too, because I don't even think that we, we really mentioned this to you, but, um, our theme for, um, this year of the, of the podcast is really around, um, you know, uh, community and seeking and building that community. So this piece of advice ties in perfectly to that,

NP (01:09:16):

That perfect <laugh>. Yes.

AN (01:09:18):

Love that you shared that sentiment. Um, well, Noah, thank you so much again, uh, for spending some time with us and, and sharing your story. I know that our listeners are gonna be really excited to hear this one. Um, and, uh, you're welcome back pretty much anytime. So, <laugh>.

NP (01:09:34):

Well, thank you so much. I had a blast. It's been wonderful, and I hope to talk to you again sometime.

AN (01:09:42):

Amazing. Well, I, I also wanna take a minute to, to shout out our huge, um, uh, give a huge shout out to our, uh, podcast team who does amazing work behind the scenes to get to bring all of these, um, episodes to life. Thank you so much. Um, Cobre, Dee, Katie, Deana, Max, and Isabelle. Um, really appreciate all the great work that goes into all of these episodes. And to our listeners, thank you so much, um, for tuning in. Your support means so much. Um, and we'll be back again really soon for the next episode. Thanks everyone. 

Outro: 

PDXWIT is a 501C3 nonprofit. We're building a better tech industry by creating access, dismantling inequities and feeling belonging. Find out more about us at www.PDXWIT.org. Like this podcast? Subscribe and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Wanna give us feedback? Contact us podcast@pxwit.org to help us improve and ensure you learn and grow from the stories you hear on humanizing tech.