Tia Hopkins: How to be Great at Something

On this episode of Humanizing Tech, we’re joined by Tia Hopkins, CTO and Chief Cyber Risk Strategist with eSentire. Tia has 20+ years of experience in Cybersecurity and is committed to nurturing a diverse and inclusive generation of cybersecurity professionals.

We discuss how to build confidence, competence, and influence within any organization. A powerhouse footballer AND philosopher, Tia drops golden nuggets all throughout the episode relatable to young job seekers and seasoned pros, alike. As Tia says, in order to be great at something you’ve first got to “learn the game, play the game, and then change the game”.

Connect with Tia on LinkedIn or at www.tiahopkins.com.

Transcript

Intro:

Welcome to humanizing tech, a PDXWIT podcast. We interview people to dig below the surface of their achievements and challenges showcasing the story behind the story. We believe that focusing on the person and humanizing their lived experiences will help shape the future of tech.

Rihana Mungin: 

Hello listeners, Rihana here. One of your podcast hosts. We are excited to share this episode, featuring Tia Hopkins. This was a live podcast recording, and I was joined by my co-host Dawn Mott. We had a live studio audience! Okay. Technically it was a live zoom audience, but they tuned to share their real time feedback and their questions. And it was a great conversation. Tia has an incredible backstory and spoiler alert her entry into the tech industry involved climbing giant telephone poles. I mean, that is incredible. She dropped so much wisdom throughout this interview that Dawn and I were so great to have the chance to meet her. So thanks for listening and we hope you all enjoy. This episode of humanizing tech is brought to you by Cambia Health Solutions. Camia is dedicated to making the healthcare experience simpler, better and more affordable for people and their families. And they are hiring across departments. Join their team to transform healthcare and create a person focused and economically sustainable healthcare system learn more and apply at Camia health.com/careers.

Dawn Mott: 

Before we get started, we'd like to acknowledge the ground we're on wherever we're tuning in from I myself happen to, to be in Portland. What we commonly know as Portland, Oregon, but it hasn't always been known as this. And the reason is because of colonization, racism, erasure, stolen lands, and the list goes on. What we wanna do here is acknowledge that Native Americans are here today, among us, working in tech. We wanna acknowledge that Afro Indigenous folks exist. And we want to say that the land that I am on, it rests on mult. No Multnomah, Cathlamet, Clackamas, Chinook, Tualatin, Kalapuya, Molalla and the many other tribes that made their home along the Columbia river. We wanna do our best to have this be more than just a written statement. So we've done a couple things. If you wanna check out PDXWIT.org/land-acknowledgement, it's in the chat, you can check out our Native Americans in tech affinity group. It's a pretty cool quarterly meetup that you could join if you are Native American.  And there's just some other stuff. So join us. Let's decolonize tech.

RM: Well, it's nice to finally meet you, Tia. This is our first time speaking and face to face, and we're glad you're here. And, you know, to get us all started, we're all part of PDXWIT and I want to know why you wanted to come and talk to us.

Tia Hopkins: You had me at humanizing tech. You know, I think that leaning again to who professionals are is more helpful than just celebrating their successes. I'm a big believer in that actually, when I mentor I don't wanna talk to you about the great things I've done, I wanna talk to you about how I screwed up, cause that's, what's gonna help you. And I think it makes the advice coming from folks that are seen as successful, especially when they're representing underrepresented groups, it makes it more relatable. I actually maybe a bit of an overshare, but I do have a bit of a complex about LinkedIn because it's where you jump up and down about all the awesome things that you've done. But I sit and I look and I'm like, this is great in terms of representing what's possible, but is it relatable? Does it feel real? And on the surface, is it really helping anyone? So that's why I was really excited about having the conversation today, because it's not a conversation about accolades or certifications or anything like that. It's just who I am as a person and who that is is everyone else that's here tonight.

DM: I love that. Thank you. You, that's one of my favorite things about these conversations, just as you're saying, I wanna know about you and what we do today, but I'm also curious of how you got to where you are today. Do you wanna start us off with like that? 

TH: That's, that's the helpful part. So you want me to tell that story? Huh? How I got here?

RM: You can start there. You can start there.

TH: Okay. We can do that. So I would say my first real job, cause you know, I worked at Dairy Queen for like a day. I found out very quickly the food services industry was not for me. I didn't even go back to pick up my paycheck. I was scared, you know, K-mart stuff like that. But my first real job, I think that really started my career was actually as a DSL installer. So when we all started ditching our.. I'm dating myself a bit, but when we started ditching our dialup modems and started moving over to what we called high speed internet then, which is incredible. I was actually working for the phone company, doing those installs. So climbing phone poles and pulling cable and crawling around in people's attics. And it was cool and it was adjacent enough to tech that I became curious about computers and how networks work and things like that.

And I'd always had a knack for it. Actually my first computer, my mom bought me when I was 12. I didn't plug it in and use it. I took it apart. And also at 12 I built my first computer because she came into my room and saw the pieces all over the floor. And I was like, this is amazing!! She said, put it back together or else. So I'm alive. So don't need to tell you that I was able to build it. But I've just always kind of had that thing instead of playing with my toys, I wanted to take them apart and see how they worked. And I'd like to build things not to use 'em just to see how things interconnect. So once I got exposed to that and I started doing those installs when you give someone high speed internet, they wanna know, well, how, how do I get this wireless?

How do I get this on more than one computer? And honestly, I got tired of saying, I don't know. I don't like to say, I don't know. I'm fine with not knowing everything, but if it's something I have the ability to learn, especially if I'm repeatedly saying, I don't know, it starts to eat at me. So this time was also around the time that we were all pivoting from Windows 98 to Windows millennium, remember when that was cool? [laughs] So I didn't have much, I'm just out here in these streets trying to figure it out. But I wanted to know more. So I went to Goodwill and I started scooping up these $15 and $20 computers that people were ditching because one of those 98 was so yesterday and I bought myself a cheap router switch. I got a “PCs for Dummies” book.

I got a “Networking for Dummies” book and I built my first home lab. If you can call it that. And I started to teach myself what happens if I change this setting and what's DNS and what's this other thing. And that actually turned into me moonlighting while I was doing installs for the phone company. And it went from just installing a network for more than one computer or installing in wireless. I actually got to the point where I was doing server deployments for businesses just on the side. So then I transitioned into a full on IT career, finally got out of doing DSL. Eventually worked my way up to being an IT director. And at this point in my career, I had dropped outta college four times. I had no certifications and had not completed a degree, still trying to figure it out, but just grit and hustle, not taking no for an answer.

And just being really curious, right? You're only gonna get one time to ask me something I don't know the answer to. And the next time we talk, I'm probably gonna know it better than you do. That's just how I'm wired. And so once I got to the IT director level, I guess now that we're labeling it imposter syndrome and it's a thing and we're talking about it. I started to look at my profile compared to some of the other people in similar roles then I was in and I was like, wow, they got a master's degree, all these certifications, I don't have any of that. Did I just get lucky? Is this a relationship thing? And so I decided that I didn't wanna be a generalist anymore. I wanted to be great at something. So I started to do some market research.

What is market research? I didn't know what I was doing. I just started looking on the internet to see what everybody else was doing and what looked interesting. So at the time, what shook out to me was, you know, my top options based on where the job trends looked like they were going and where companies looked like they were going from a technology perspective, it boiled down to DevOps, Cloud, and Cybersecurity. DevOps was out. I had gone into this program for gifted children when I was a sophomore in high school and I took Computer Program and I was great at it, but I didn't love it. And I decided then that it's not what I wanted to do. So I'm looking at Cloud and it's really new. I might as well have been saying marshmallow cause a lot of folks did know what it was and I didn't feel like it would be the best value add in terms of my transferable skills, given that my background at that time had become more systems, network related.

And so I started to look into Cybersecurity and what I realized is one, I was already doing a form of it dealing with an and installing firewalls, setting up VPNs and things like that. But just looking at what it meant to be a cybersecurity professional and really make an impact on the personal security of families and the national security of our country and how important it is to corporate sustainability and things like that really spoke to me. And then when I started to look into the intricacies of how attacks occur and what it means to be an adversary, what it means to be on the good side of the fine I'm like, yeah, that's how I'm wired. Cause somebody can build it, I can break it, I'm gonna break stuff. And so I went down the Cybersecurity path, but I went down the cybersecurity path hard.

So, you know, I said dropped outta college four times, but when I got into cybersecurity, I got my bachelors, didn't stop, got my masters, didn't stop, got a second masters, got all these certifications. And that's when my career really started to take off. And what I started to realize was I was being afforded opportunities because I was adding value. And in something, as simple as a conversation, people started to look for me because they knew I would have something to say. And my career just skyrocketed from there. I landed my role at eSentire, actually as an individual contributor. I've been there for four years. Within a year and a half, I was promoted to team lead. Four months after that I was leading the global solutions architecture organization. I think maybe a year and a half after that I took over, I built a team and then added responsibility of a third team. And very soon I'll have a very exciting announcement of my next charge with eSentire moving into another promotion. So the organization itself is 24/7 security operation center services. So it's just hunting for threats, helping customers understand how to look at risk from a threat perspective and put plans in place to reduce that risk. So that was a very long story, but hopefully an interesting one.

RM: Okay. But I mean, you jumped into tech, you said you went from retail to installing the fiber cable. Like how did you even make that connection to get started? Because that's like that just kicked off and started the momentum. But how did you get there? How did you get to that cliff?

TH: When I was, I think I was working at like bell south mobility or something like that before, back when it cost like $3,000 to send a text message and you had the Motorola star tech phone that you could flip and they had the big antennas. And if you call me at 6:59, I'm gonna be mad at you cause it's not free to talk to you till 7:01. I was working at a cell phone store and, and I decided I wanted to go back to school or to school. This might have been my first attempt at college. And I went to, I believe it was ITT Tech and I was in an electronics computing engineering technology program. This was after actually, no, this is not my second stint. I actually went to Miami when I graduated high school to go to the University of Miami and I dropped out of the University of Miami, cause I got into a computer program because all my advice was you should do computers.

Okay. But I learned that I was not an engineer and that's how I ended up at ITT but while I was there the phone company was doing a lot of recruiting for students. And all you had to do was come in and pass this test and go through some interviews. And yeah, it sounded a lot easier than it was. But I did pass the test and I went through a lot of interviews, but the scariest thing, and I think when I really started to get a taste of success and what it could feel like to be confident was passing that pole climbing test. So when you go work for the phone company, you get the job and then you have to go to pole climbing school and they teach you how to climb a telephone pole. And when you tell them you're ready to test, if you fail three times, you can't keep the job. So that was super scary. But yeah, that's where it all started. I passed it. I started working there and then the rest of it was just me being curious, picking things up, exploring, not being afraid to ask hard questions and push. And I'm gonna ask, I'm not just gonna take what you say at face value. And that has actually served me really well in my career.

RM: Hmm that's I don't know how you could stomach climbing… I wouldn't pass the test. I wouldn't pass the pole test. There's no way. There's no way,I've been avoiding my office cause of COVID I'm afraid of anything and everything. I can't be around anyone. So hearing that, that's just such an interesting way to kick off you or journey in tech. And I'm sure that working all of those different angles, like customer service side, working at them with the telephone company, working with the people in their homes and understanding how things get connected, all that did was give you a much broader breadth of experience before you were getting promoted all those times and when you were looking around at folks and saying they had degrees, well, you didn't need it because you had all of this other experience. [laughs]

TH: I was doing the stuff, I didn't need the paper! [laughs]

RM: You did it! And that's the thing that's awesome.

DM: Yeah.

RM: What do you got, Dawn? What do you wanna know from our guest?

DM: Oh, I wanna know so much. I wanna know what you would tell one who is maybe not or doesn't have as much grit as you, right? Like you wanted to learn. So you went out and learned. You already had the job, but you wanted a degree. So you went out and got it. How, what if I was your mentee? And I'm like, wavering, how did you know? Like how did you do it?

TH: I think the biggest thing, and this is, this is what I've learned in my conversations with folks that are trying to figure it out. It's so hard to get in. There's so much information. It's usually because they haven't figured out their why, why are you here? Why do you wanna do this? What moves you? Something I always say is it is hard enough to get out of bed every mornin’ and just be. When you're doing what you love versus doing what you feel like you have to do. That's heavy. Right? Then instead of just moving, because you're motivated, you're like dragging stuff around. So you have to know your why - one, because that's automatic motivation. That's what fuels passion. And you all also have to know your why, because especially in tech, this is a hard road, especially for women.

Where you gotta be so much greater than, and you walk into a room and there's not confident looks on people's face. You have to earn your credibility as you're delivering, whatever it is you're delivering. You need to know your why to remind yourself why you’re there. And so I feel like when I dropped outta college four times, it was because I was not going for the right reasons. I was going because someone told me I should. I was taking a program that someone told me sounded like it might be what I want to do. I was pursuing a degree that was the hottest thing on the market. There's literally no passion and no motivation behind that. And so when I got bit by the bug, it was because I found my why, I found my passion. It's what I wanted to do when I woke up every day. And no one was gonna be able to tell me I wasn't gonna be successful at that cause I'm gonna show you every day until I'm not doing this anymore. And I think that is powerful because when you really believe in something and you also believe in yourself, then that's a powerful combination and it'll take you wherever you wanna go.

DM: So you need that alignment of self and purpose. It's kinda the why.

RM: So when you're talking about these moments, I mean all three of us are in tech and we know when you're talking about, I've had these moments that are really difficult and I need to know my why so that you can push through it. What's one of those defining moments that you've had in any way, whether it taught you something about how the tech industry actually is or taught you what you were capable of or just any, any one of those scenarios that really sticks out for you?

TH: I think I had a really big moment in my career at eSentire. And just to add a little context to that, I came up kind of hard knocks, not a real sense of community, not seeking validation cause I was just in my own bubble for a lot of reasons. So throughout my career, I'm just heads down. I'm doing what I gotta do. And I don't need you to tell me I'm doing the right thing, but what that does is it shuts you off to feedback. It kind of stunts your growth because you're just doing what you know, because you're not letting anyone in. And so when I joined eSentire I had a really supportive CEO and he started to tell me things about myself that I didn't know. I think one of the most challenging things to do when you're trying to figure out what you wanna do with your life is identify what you're good at, identify what differentiates you from everyone else, because you've been you your whole life and everything you do to yourself is normal.

And so as I started to gain some confidence, I started to move around and build some relationships and try to solve some problems. And then I started to see not only were people listening to the things I would say they were starting to ask me my opinion. That's life changing. Wait a minute. You wanna hear from me? I'm not used to that. And I did go through a little transition where folks wanted to talk to me or invited me to a podcast like this, when you're not used to… actually no, not even when you're not used to being asked… but when you're used to being rejected, let's take it even further. And then people are looking for you. What's the response - what you want? It's not, oh yeah, I'd be happy to, it's what you want?

So I have to process my own stuff. I have to get out of my own way. And when I did that, it just opened me up to so much because I was open to other people. And my big moment was when I had the confidence to go to my CEO and do a breakdown of something that I thought was a huge gap at our company and why it mattered. And not only that, what we needed to do to fix it. Because as a leader, you love the people that make your life easier. Most people just bring you problems. Well, you're the leader, here's the problem. And you're like, what am I supposed to do with this? Like I tell my team, don't bring me dead mice. That's a dead mouse. I don't want a dead mouse. So I took the CEO, the problem and the solution.

He went through my analysis. He came back to me. He said, I love it. Your timing is perfect. I've been looking for exactly this. I just couldn't piece it all together, cause I'm not everywhere. You go build it. We'll flesh it out. You build a team, you own it. And that all turned into a program that has been a huge differentiator for the company and led to one of my promotions. So that was huge for me to go from like no one wants to hear anything I have to say to the head person at this organization saying, I believe in you. Yes, go do that. And at that point, I had already built some confidence. One thing I didn't mention is that I played women's tackle football for 12 years and now I coach it. That experience just built so much confidence because it's you against yourself. Football doesn't build character, it reveals it. 

So you find out who you are. And then when you find out who you are, you're then put in a position where you have to decide who you wanna be. And who I decided I wanted to be as someone that would stand up for myself and not take no for answer and fight for what I believe in. And that moment, even though I had that in my head, served as a great deal of validation. And after that, oh, you couldn't tell me nothing. No, I know this is right. And we should do it this way. And not being bossy or anything like that, but being vocal when I know something is wrong and being convicted in my beliefs and just communicating the right way, and working with teams to cross functionally solve problems. Because there is that person that has all the ideas, but pushes those ideas on everyone else without thinking about the impact to other teams and other processes and other things in the organization. But I build relationships and bridges and ally ships, and every time I offer up an opinion, it's also, I wanted to talk to you about it, cause I just don't know what I don't know about your organization and how that might impact you. So what do you think? And you know, you catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar, so it usually works.

RM: Okay. Do you think that being considered bossy is more about who's the one calling you bossy rather than you just speaking with conviction? I think I always have to like, think about who's calling you bossy today. Okay.

TH: I think the thing is… listen, this is humanizing tech, right? I can keep it real with you? 

[all laugh]

DM: Tell us! I can relate to it.

TH: I think calling someone bossy no matter who they are, there are people that are bossy. Some people are just bossy and it's frustrating. But I'm not bossy, I'm confident. I just happen to be a female that's confident, AKA bossy. Mm mm.  That is not my cross to bear. Something else I say is, do not let what people put on you cause you to forget what's in you and what's in you is greatness. And some people are afraid of that. And that's where those comments about being bossy and she thinks she better than everybody else. Well, you're insecure cause you haven't figured your stuff out. And you're hating on me because I have and also it doesn't bother me that you feel the way you do about me because I'm still gonna do my thing because I'm that confident in who I am and whether I work here or nowhere, I will always be who I am.

That's something no one can ever take away from me. And I think that brings about a sense of peace, a sense of stability that it doesn't matter. You go to a job interview and you don't get the job, their loss. You know what, that probably wasn't a role for me anyway. Versus the other side of that, where you put yourself through the ringer mentally and oh, what could I have done better? And I just been doing this for so long. Like there's power in what you tell yourself, you know? And if you let somebody call you bossy and you believe it or you process it. I say so many things, you guys gotta forgive me. I got a lot of philosophies and metaphors and all kinds of stuff. But when people say things to me, it really depends on who it's coming from, how I choose to process it.

Whether I consider it or whether I allow it to penetrate me. There's a big difference. If you call me bossy and I consider it, that means in this moment, Hmm, maybe I said something the wrong way. I process it. And if I feel like there's something, I could have said a different way, I own it, correct it. Then let's move forward. But if it's you, then I'm not gonna let that penetrate me because I'm gonna carry that with me. And then the next time someone says it and the next time someone says it and the next time someone says it, it becomes trauma. Nobody's worth that. Nobody's worth that.

RM: That sounds like wisdom that's come from experience.

TH: A lot of it. Yeah.

[all laugh] 

DM: So you started at eSentire as an individual contributor. And then you said after about a year and a half, you were promoted, how did that change? Did that change you at all? And like your way of looking at the job to now be at a different “level” how has that affected?

TH: Yes! [laughs] Yeah. I mean from a lot of perspectives, right? As an individual contributor, you're only worried about yourself and your job, but that's really never been me. My big philosophy, someone told me I should write a book and this should be the title, but the way I live my life is learn the game, play the game, change the game. And that's exactly what I did at eSentire. I didn't come in there like why don't we do this? Like this at my old company we used to do. And I know you work with that person that just comes in questioning all the processes like this is the first day the doors to the business have opened, like have several seats, like give it some time. If you would sit down and learn, you wouldn't be running around saying, why do we do it this way?

So I did take some time to learn very well the teams that are here, what do they do? How do they operate together? What is the customer experience like? All these things that weren't even my job and what it does is it brings visibility to my organization, brings visibility to me, which is never the goal. Right? But it builds relationships that make the company better. Because if all the teams are siloed and not communicating, then inefficient processes are in place and maybe not as great decisions are being made. So that's how I've always looked at things. But you know, within my little box of, of being an individual contributor, my reach, they can go much further past like helping out my team from a mentorship perspective, reaching out to other teams to see how we can reduce some of the friction and improve efficiencies in the way we work together.

And I guess someone took notice and that's how I got my first promotion to team lead, which is really still an individual contributor, none of the HR stuff. But you're mentoring your team. All of a sudden, four months later, okay. I'm just getting settled into now I got myself and a couple people to help out both of my leaders. I had a director who reported directly to a VP. Both of them vacated the role to go to other positions in the company. And they both called me on the same day and told me that they were gonna put me up for the role as global leader. Now think about that… team lead, I'm not even a manager. After team lead, comes manager, senior manager, director, senior director, then VP. So I'm on the phone, like girl breathe. What are they talking about? What are y'all talking about? But I had that moment to myself and on the phone, I'm like, oh, well what's happening? Sure, absolutely. Tell me more about it. Like what are we thinking here? Get them talking so I can get myself together. [laughs]

RM: Wait, was this over zoom?

TH: Oh no, this is a phone call. This was when we back, when we could go outside to see people. [laughs]

DM: You have to pretend your camera dies so they can't read the face. [all laughing]

TH: Yes, so we had the conversation and this is tech. So at eSentire, not only was I the only female on my team at the time, I was obviously the only female of color at that time. And probably in the United States working for the company. And probably one of the youngest people on the team, as well, because everybody on my team was a bunch of middle aged Caucasian males. And so I know I can do the job, but are they gonna let me do the job, right? And this is not about imposter syndrome. This is not about, can I do it? This is about my belief that a leader is only as good as the team that has to follow. What is that gonna be like? So the only thing I have to figure out was how I was gonna build relationships.

And when you're in a role like that, it's tough, especially when you don't go through the transition because it's those lower ranking roles that allow you to build more of those personal relationships. Because the higher up you go, the more you're on the hook for the corporate vision and the less you're able to really be that advocate for the people. And so I have to find a happy medium for both of those. And so the way I decided to attack it was building relationships with my team, building relationships with other organizations, figuring out who the influencers were, who my allies needed to be. So basically surveying, getting a lay of the land. So I had one-on-ones with all my team members. Hey, you know, tell me, tell me what you love about being here. Tell me what makes you not wanna come to work every day? What are your career aspirations? Like,I care, and having those conversations and the same thing with other teams. 

So you say, I care, you make some things happen, right? You find some low hanging fruit, get some quick wins, show people that you mean what you say. And then you start to go attack and you start to influence and you start to drive efficiencies and deliver on what you're in the role to do. And so once I got comfortable and I stabilized my organization, I started to branch out. So get this stable, get some leadership in place under me now, what else I go attack? And so that's really been my mode of operation. Don't get too big for yourself, but also don't get stuck. So it's a process, but it was scary going from wait, hold up. I'm just hanging out in New York. What you mean? I gotta talk to everybody now. 

And this wasn't just a national leader. This was like I went from managing a territory in New York city to leading a global team. So I had resources across the United States and in the UK. So it was learn how to be a global leader too. Cause I had been an IT director before, but it was a smaller organization and I was calling the shots, but it was around technology. There was no global team and it wasn't a sales organization. This is a sales organization. So there was a lot of pressure, but you know, pressure can do one or two things - it can bust pipes or it can make diamonds. I'm a diamond. So I have to make it happen. [laughs]

DM: Thank you. 

RM: Oh, that's incredible. Oh, that is incredible. That stratospheric rise within that company in such a short time.. I'm glad that we get to meet you. I feel like I'm gonna come after this call and talk to you a little bit more about what can I do? What can I do in my career to follow in your footsteps? But instead engineering, instead of cybersecurity?

TH: Hit me up. Hit. Me. Up. [all laugh] You know, I'll be honest, I think something that helps me. Well, this is the funny side of it. People joke that they're afraid of me cause I play football and they just work with me cause they're scared I'm gonna tackle 'em or something like that. But the reality is that I'm not afraid to ask hard questions because you can't just take what someone tells you if it doesn't sit well with you and just walk away with that because what you produce as an outcome is on you, not them. So you have to make sure you're getting what you need to move forward in a way that feels right to you. And I don't stop asking questions till I feel like that. Even if the conversation ends and I go away and I think about something, I come back and I'm like, oh look, you know, we were talking about this thing.

And I started thinking, look, let's talk about that a little bit more. And I am that way because the biggest failure of my career to this day, is back when I was a networking systems admin, I went to a financial firm to upgrade the storage in their exchange server, financial firm exchange. That's where all their money happens. So I get there, I had to install a new rate card into the system and with the system, the server wouldn't read it. I didn't know what was going on. Alright, I'm gonna call tech support, call up tech support, try this, try that, nothing's working. And then the guy on the other end of the phone goes well, delete the RAID away. And so to break that down just in case there's like non-technical listeners or in other areas of tech, RAID basically allows you to combine multiple hard drives either to add more storage or have redundancy.

So you're either copying data back and forth between multiple drives or you're just using them to expand the amount of space that you have. The RAID controller is the software that controls how those hard drives interact. So when you delete a RAID controller, the hard drives don't know what to do. So the challenge in this situation is that Tia's listening to Mr. Brilliant Tech Support and Mr. Brilliant Tech Support didn't read his notes that told him that the version of the RAID controller in this server could not be rebuilt once you delete it. So I'm looking at a whole bunch of hard drives with the emails of a financial firm on it that are no good to anybody. I call my boss. I could hear her vomiting in the background. It was the worst day of my life, but I took it on the chin.

I ain't let 'em see me sweat. We went in there and we worked it out. They were pissed. But at the end of it, what they remembered was how cool, calm and collected Tia was throughout the entire process. What Tia learned from that is, mama ain't raise no fool, ask the right questions to get the right answers. It's not just about asking questions to get answers. You have to ask the right questions to get the right answers. And that moment changed my life. I shoulda never just said, okay, I should have said, well, what's gonna happen if I do that? And if it doesn't work, how are we gonna put it back together? But I trusted that he knew what he was doing, something else I learned in tech. A lot of people don't know what they're doing

DM: Preach.

TH: Is this too real? I mean,

RM: I know I that's that's an empathetic side. Okay. You have mentioned this a number of times - you have been bringing up your failure and I just gotta say, I really appreciate that. I think about myself when I was trying to go through college, whenever I would get a grade that I didn't want or something was in the way and I felt like I wasn't doing things right. But it meant that engineering, that tech wasn't for me. And I dropped outta school twice and I had my struggles and it just never… it would've been so much easier if everybody around me was talking about their struggles, especially people that looked like me. And once I became aware enough to understand that importance, I started talking to folks in my community about my struggles and my failure. What was it that flipped that switch for you so that you're able to talk about it on a podcast multiple times where you can access it?

TH: I think accepting failure as part of the journey and not something you need to be ashamed of. You can't see it. But in my background, I have a quote from LeBron James that I'm able to see every day when I walk into my office, it says, you can't be afraid of failure. It's the only way you succeed. And I think when you get it wrong or you try something, I'll say it a different way, when you try something, you either succeed or you grow. If you accept it as a failure and you stop trying then yeah, it's a failure. But in the end, it's part of the journey. And honestly, things that come easily to us, we remember a lot less than things we struggle through because we remember that experience. What happened? The story I just told, I'm gonna date myself a little bit here, but I mean, it happened a really long time ago, like double digit time ago.

And I still remember it like it was yesterday. And you think about something so simple as a kid learning how put on their socks, not a big deal. I got two feet. I got two socks. I might struggle a little bit. Eventually they'll go on maybe backwards, but we're good versus a kid learning how to ride a bike. You fall and you fall and you fall. And the handle bars are twisting up and I scrape knee and oh, this sucks. I'm never gonna get it right. Bicycles aren't for me. And then they get it! And they are the king or the queen of the world. And everybody has a “day I learn how to ride my bike story.” That is what failure is. Failure makes us who we are, all the mistakes that I have made in my life. Whether it's in my career, in my relationships, in my education, they've shaped me into who I am today.

And one thing my stepfather says all the time that I love so much is that if you change one thing, you change everything. So I would relive every single failure that I have and we have to stop associating or seeing failure is so negative. Right? Stop giving it so much power. When I ask people, when you hear failure what do you think? They think, oh my family, I think about getting it wrong. I think about not succeeding or not being good enough. And for me, I'm like failure? Failure is my homie. Failure is temporary cause it doesn't exist unless I allow it to. Failure is inevitable. No one gets it right every time and failure is necessary. We have to learn how to not do things so we can perfect the way we do them. I don't know how many times my man tried to make the light bulb, but he tried a lot of times.

And what they say is he didn't get it wrong all those times. He just figured out a whole lot of ways not to make a light bulb. And then he figured out the one way to make the light bulb. So when I have conversations with mentees and they're just talking about the struggle and all the reason is that they can't break into cybersecurity and all the reasons that they're not getting the job, I'm like you got 20 minutes with me and I'm not saying that to say like I'm queen Sheba and I'm so busy, but you're gonna take this 20 minutes you have with me and you're gonna talk to me about the 10 or 15 ways that you can can't get it right? Instead of digging into the one way you can, you gotta work on that! You know? And a lot of that is back to my point, understanding your why, cause when you know your why that ties back to who you are and then that drives what you pursue and you have something you're really passionate about and you want it and it eases at you. So you just go after it and you go after it and you go after it. That's what it's gotta be. That's what it's been for me.

RM: I'm gonna join that  fan club and encourage you to write a book. You had so many quotes in there. You had like multiple chapters. You spoke the lines to multiple chapters of this book. So I don't know. You sound like you're busy, but I hope you can find some space. Ooh, looks like someone wants a calendar calendar of daily quotes of what you say, okay. 

TH: I'll work on it. I'll work on it. [laughs]

DM: I think it's really, truly amazing that you embody this authenticity and kindness and that it's those connections that you're able to create at work that you attribute your success. And I mean, that was your two bosses were calling you specifically because of the relationships you've built and what you've proven. So I just love when people that have such an amazing heart, which we have a few minutes to talk about, Empow(H)er Cybersecurity. Cause you don't stop. You keep going and you keep making the world better for other people. So how did you start? Tell us about this. Where did, where did this brainchild get birth?

TH: Yeah. That's exactly what it started as a child in my brain that wouldn't stop talking to me. This was actually part of my accepting that I needed to be open and not have this chip on my shoulder cause nobody ever did anything for me. Nobody ever gave me anything. I would even say, what is giving back? If you giving back doesn't somebody have to give you something first? I'm not giving back. I'm just giving. I was bitter. And I had to get over that because, what I said to myself was Tia, the people that need your support now are not the same people that turned their back on you then. And if you don't get yourself together, you're gonna be one of those people to them that you're upset about from back then.

And so… I talk to myself a lot, I'm very self aware. I know my triggers, I have my conversations and then I handle my stuff. And so what I said was at the place I am in my career, especially given that nothing was handed to me and it was an uphill battle and all those things, I felt that I was well positioned to help. A lot of people, not necessarily find a shortcut, but it definitely didn't have to be as hard as it was for me. And so I started having these ideas. I was like, oh, I'll mentor four or five ladies. Or maybe I'll do some kind of program where people apply and I'll mentor four or five ladies and I'm spiritual. So I apologize if this offends anyone, but my higher being tapped me on the shoulder and said, baby girl, no five that's, that's not gonna do anything.

I said, okay, 20, 20 that's not gonna do anything. And all of a sudden I found myself just taking notes just every day, typing stuff in my iPhone and notes. And I had this long, long list of notes and I'm looking at it like, well, this doesn't look like an organization at all. So what I did was I got this thing called a business model canvas. And what it does is it's these little blocks where you put in, what do your partners need to be? Who's your target audience? And what are you gonna deliver? And so it helped me organize my thoughts. So it went from brainchild, to notes in my notepad to, to a slide deck to this organization and where the fire came from was I didn't feel like there needed to be another organization providing training and having workshops and webinars and conferences.

There's literally no shortage of resources and information in the cybersecurity industry. What's lacking is how to take all of that and apply it to one's self. And especially as women, when you don't see anyone that looks like you that's first of all, doing it. And then you don't see a lot of women that are successful and in leadership roles, and making decisions one, it makes it feel like it's not possible. And two, it creates the appearance of, even if I do get lucky enough to get in my career trajectory and my opportunity is gonna be limited because it appears that women only to get to a certain point and I was like, that’s crap. And we're gonna debunk this myth and I'm gonna get all of us awesome women in this one safe space. And we're gonna feel comfortable to figure out who we are and what our why is and ask the hard questions without being worried about being ridiculed or having someone steal an idea and take it as their own.

But in the comfort of other women that look like you and that have done it. And then for the women that have figured it out, also celebrate them. So it's a safe space for women trying to figure it out. And it's a platform to celebrate the women that have. And it just creates this ecosystem of more women feeling like it's possible. And then when you celebrate them, when they get there, all of a sudden you've expanded how much representation you have. And so my hope was to create a domino effect and you know, I'm not authentic or friendly or nice because I think it'll gain me a following. It's just who I am. And if I am who I am, then all I have to do is wake up every day and be, I don't have to try so hard. So that's why I'm able to do all the things that I do, cause all I have to do is show up.

And I like the way I show up. I think it's kinda awesome. And, and you know, folks respond to it and every time I learn something, I bring it right back to the community. I was in a board meeting today. This is something you not gonna hear when you behind that keyboard answering the health desk phone. Let me tell you how this works. And I even built out a program called Differentiate You because I firmly believe that the biggest problem women have in tech is a lack of confidence. And I know we've heard the statistic, but every time I say it, it's mind blowing. A woman will self select out of applying for a job because she doesn't meet 80% of the qualifications. But a male counterpart will say, I can spell that I'm gonna apply for this. And they will go into the interview and they will be confident, not necessarily competent.

And they will land that role. But an incredibly competent woman, lucky enough to land that interview because she took a chance and applied often lacks the confidence to drive the value that actually lies within. And so when you don't really believe in yourself, when you let that imposter syndrome get to you, it shows up outside. And if you can't make someone that's hiring you confident, then you can't land that role. People have to believe in you. Hiring managers want you to get it right. Trust me, I die looking at resumes. I want somebody to get it, please get it right. You know? But hiring managers put a lot on the line when they hire people. So they have to have confidence in you and they can't do that if you don't have confidence in yourself. So the idea behind this program is to help women build that confidence.

And it's really simple. It's just validating that it is what you thought it was or telling you no, it's not really that, but here's what it actually is sprinkle with a little bit of, I believe in you. I think you're awesome. You can do that. That was a fantastic idea. And all of a sudden you got a confidence army ready to take over the world. And so the big mission of the organization is to paint the pipeline. Like we #paintthepipeline, right? We have to do that. And obviously I do want to help women of color because I feel like that's what I'm able to represent and relate to and connect with. But the bigger charge here is if we don't find a way to get our lives together and drive a more diverse cybersecurity workforce, the adversaries will continue to own us.

Do you think they're collecting the demographics when they're hiring people to build ransomware applications and pick over banks? They don't care where you're from and who your mama is and how old you are. And are you newer, old, diverse? They just wanna know, could you pop that thing I need you to pop? And obviously we can't be that loosey goosey, but we need to do better about where we're looking, and understand what our implicit biases are as hiring managers, because the tendency is to hire what makes us comfortable. And that tends to be either people that look like us or have similar likes because you just feel good about it. But they can be horrible at what they do. And so I mean, there's, I could talk about what drives just the lack of diversity for days. But I really am trying to dismantle that lower the perceived barrier to entry. And I'm not just opening doors, I'm kicking doors in cause a lot of times too, we just need to get people in front of the right people. And they're just being drowned out by all these people, putting their hands up saying, I can do it. I can do it. No, you can't sit down. She can do it though. You should talk to her. 

RM: Where else can people find you online? Or where can we listen to you speak again? How can we read some of the things that you've written?

TH: I think most of what I do is on LinkedIn. I do have a personal website Tiahopkins.com, obviously anything Empow(H)er Cybersecurity does I'll be associated with. Twitter game is weak, but it's @YHopkins. I do prefer LinkedIn though, cause it's all about building up this industry and helping more people come on board.

RM: You also didn't get your shows spoiled for you stay off Twitter.

TH: Yeah, I don't love it.

RM: What have you got Dawn?

DM: I am just in awe. I can say that you definitely gave me chills and I'm like, what is my, why? I thought I knew, maybe I don't and that's just where I've been going wrong this whole time. So I am so grateful for you. I wish that this was a two hour conversation. I'm incredibly grateful that you had talked to us and just share how you got where you are and your philosophy use and just all the kindness and the, I love this conversation. Thank you so much.

TH: Thank you. I'm happy to come back for the sequel anytime. I learn something new every day. Okay,

DM: We got it. Okay.

RM: It's recorded to come back. We have that on tape. We have that documented. [all laugh]

TH: This has been so fun. This is my favorite kind of conversation. I love to keep it real.

Outro: PDXWIT is a 501 C3 nonprofit. We're building a better tech industry by creating access, dismantling inequities and feeling belonging. Find out more about us at www.prdxwit.org. Like this podcast? Subscribe and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Want to give us feedback? Contact us at podcast@PDXwit.org to help us improve and ensure you learn and grow from the stories you hear on Humanizing Tech.