Amanda Lopez: Community Building
Amanda Lopez, “Keener” and Senior Talent Acquisition Partner in the Outdoor Apparel Industry, joins us on the podcast.
A true Oregon Native, Amanda tells the story of her family opening the first Mexican Restaurant in Hood River as first generation immigrants and the community they built in Hood River.
A community builder herself, Amanda has been involved with PDXWIT since 2015. She launched Women of Color in Tech, serves on the board, and helps with PDXWIT’s Scholarship Program. Additionally, she plans to get involved with Latinos Outdoors and Partners in Diversity’s Community Resource Groups.
Tune in to hear about Amanda’s inspiring journey, how she’s approached her own community building work, and her involvement in the movement for creating a more inclusive and accessible Outdoor Industry.
Transcript
Intro:
Welcome to humanizing tech, a PDX WIT podcast. We interview people to dig below the surface of their achievements and challenges showcasing the story behind the story. We believe that focusing on the person and humanizing their lived experiences will help us shape the future of tech.
Rihana Mungin:
Before we get started, I want to acknowledge the land we are on, wherever we're turning in from. PDXWIT recognizes the ongoing violence, trauma and erasure Indigenous Oregonians and Native Americas face. Today we're recording from Portland and Portland rests on the traditional village sites of the Multnomah, Kathlamet, Clackamas, Chinook, Tualatin, Kalapuya, Molalla, and many other tribes who made their homes along the Columbia river. We endeavor to have this acknowledgement be more than just words. The tech industry is building the future of our world, and it is up to us to ensure that there is a future for all. To find out more about how we're supporting the future of Indigenous Oregonians and native Americans. Please visit our website. We'll add a link in the show notes.
Anusha Neelam:
This episode of humanizing tech is brought to you by First Tech Federal Credit Union. First Tech puts people over profit. With personalized financial services and convenient banking solutions to help you thrive. First Tech offers individualized tools for your financial wellness, whether you're saving for college, buying a house or looking forward to retirement. When you're ready to save time and money visit first techfed.com and see how first tech invests in you.
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of humanizing tech. It has been quite a week for me, so I am so excited to be here and end on a high note. I think we're gonna have a great conversation today. So with that, Rihana, do you wanna introduce yourself and our guest?
RM:
Of course. So my name is Rihanna Munin. I use she/her pronouns. And as of this recording, I'm sitting as the interim executive director at PDXWIT, okay. Let me just… I gotta ground myself because I'm having a moment. I think … I'm having this moment because I'm really excited about our guest, Amanda Lopez. Many of you might recognize her from her involvement at PDXWIT, I definitely do. [laugh] She was a board member, actually. We were on the board together, hired at the same time. And she was, oh, she was not just a board member, she was also the co-chair. Remember that you took the lead? You were in charge?
Amanda Lopez:
Yeah, I remember that. Mm-hmm, that was a good time.
RM:
And, she helped organize one of PDXWIT’s first women of color in tech events. And she is currently a senior talent acquisition partner at Keen footwear. That's a new job since the last time I talked to you.
AL:
Yeah, since last summer, I'm a keener now, that’s what we call ourselves [laughs] All things, sandals booths, you know, Pacific Northwest, you like toe coverage in your sandal? We got it!
AN:
And I can't wait to learn more about what you do in your day job. But we're so happy to have you here. Welcome Amanda. We're so excited to have you. And fun fact that I learned about you recently is that you're an Oregon native, right? Like you were born and raised here?
AL:
Yup. Hood River, Oregon shout out, anybody? Woo woo! Let me hear ya.
RM:
One of the few
AL:
Yeah. Center of the universe, Hood River, Oregon, if you didn't know that.
AN:
I'm an Oregon native too. And I feel like I don't meet a lot of people that are.. so excited to meet someone who is. Rihanna, are you as well? Like, did you grow up here?
RM:
No, I was a military brat. And so when my dad retired from the Navy, we moved to Oregon. So I've been in Oregon a long time. I've been in Oregon long enough that when people ask if I'm a Portland native or an Oregon native, I'm like, no, but I've been here since 2001, like their demeanor changes. And they're like, okay, you can be one of us. Like, you can be part of the club.
AL:
I'll allow it.
RM:
You're not one of those Californians coming up here, you know.
AN:
And, Amanda, you were recently in Mexico. Cuz I know when we were having a chat around the podcast you were still in Mexico, so how's your trip? How'd it go? Was it for vacation? Was it for work?
AL:
Yeah, I mean, I worked, so it was kind of a vacation cuz you're working in a beautiful location. Saw some family, saw some friends, worked a lot, you know, cuz it doesn't stop the job market as you know it’s insanity. So I didn't wanna pause too long. But you know, you're in sunshine and around amazing people and I ate tacos every day. It wasn't the worst thing in the world. [laughs]
AN:
Definitely doesn’t sound like it. [laughs]
AL:
Yeah, this is the future. Like the next gen status made like it was great. I loved it every second.
AN:
Awesome. Awesome. Great to hear.
RM:
Okay. So for those who don't know you as well as I do, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Like who's Amanda, what do you do?
AL:
Absolutely.
RM:
What are you about?
AL:
Not a whole lot. [laughs] No, I'm just kidding.
[All laugh]
AL:
I'm Anna Lopez. I'm born and raised, ;ike I mentioned in Hood river, Oregon. I literally went to kindergarten with people that I went to highschool with. It's one of those small towns that’s just adorable and cute. It's on the one that you picture on a postcard, but I had a little bit of a different experience. My grandparents moved there I wanna say in the 50s, I don't remember the exact date. They're pretty young. Opened a restaurant, they’re migrant farm workers, brought their barrage of children and they opened a restaurant and that was kind of like a real home escape for Latinos coming to Oregon to work in farm work who didn't speak English, didn't know anybody were far away from their families. It was nice to see a Mexican restaurant and people speaking Spanish. It was a little bit of an Oasis. So that unfortunately closed when I was like four years old. But I remember even when I was really little how involved my grandparents were in the community and helping those that just came across the border. My dad met my mom in the restaurant. She was a waitress as a teenager and he just came to Oregon.
RM:
Ohh, stop!
AL:
I know [laughs] It was one of those. It was just my iconic place and just the love they had and the community they built in Hood river, was really my foundation for all the things I do now. They're really just a good beacon for people who felt lost in a very different place. And that always stayed with me. So I worked really hard to prove that, make them proud. Went to U of O, go ducks, best school in Oregon. Sorry. Um, not sorry.
RM:
Divisive.
AL:
[laughs] I know. I'm already making boundaries with people [laughs] and it was just such a good experience. I'm an Oregon born. Went to U of O. I'm that classic story in Portland. But super rare now, like Anusha said, I don't meet people who are born and raised in Oregon very often. And when I do, there's definitely this bond, like, oh, you are here back when that nightclub with the pine street market was a quest, it was a 15 year old club. [laughs]
Love stories about Portland. My husband is actually… he came from California when he was in second grade.
RM:
Ooh, one of those Californians.
AL:
Yeah. Like how dare he. I know how rude. And he's still friends with his friends in Portland to this day and that just speaks to Portland and the community. And I love that. I came to Portland in 2009 and it was the worst time ever to graduate college in history cuz it was peak recession. So I was fighting with people with 10 years of marketing experience for an internship, it was insanity. But super fun. I mean I wouldn't trade it for the world. I learned so much, it got me to where I am. It made me work 10 times harder. So now when I'm kind of faced with something challenging, I just think of those days like, Hey, I made it through that, this is cake.
Like, come on [laughs] I have rent money. I can pay my mortgage. So I just always think back to the hard times to get me through any challenge I face now. Now I work at Keen as mentioned footwear company born and raised outta Portland, Oregon. It's an amazing brand, super passionate about the outdoors. That's where I started in HR at Columbia sportswear, in HR and recruiting and just love, love, love the outdoors. I've done the gamut of recruiting. If you could think of a job, I'd probably have recruited for it. Like throw one out literally, like gate attendant and performance arts and the people who rig the stage to a VP of marketing. I mean, you name it, it's all over the place. Park Rangers, I've done it all, tech. Because I love it.
It's not the job, it's working with people and helping them find their career path. It’s challenging, but really exciting for me. And love that, love that entire career path. And I'm super passionate about it, but now doing it at Keen, global company, which is exciting. And outside of that, my extracurriculars include PDXWIT! Loved from the minute that I met everyone. I was telling Anusha, I remember when Elizabeth joined, it was a game changer. I was so excited. [laughs] I started in 2015 attending some events in 2016 and then started women of color in tech because I was one of those girls that was, why are my people not here? Where are my people? [laugh] And eventually one of my mentors was like, you know, when you complain about something, you don't do anything about it, it’s called whining at that point.
I was like, oh my gosh. I mean, it was what I needed to hear in the moment because I did have the ability to do something about it. I have all the tools and resources. Like there's no reason it shouldn't be me starting something.
RM:
It still stings though.
AL:
It still stings [laughs] yeah, she's one of those, like - I love you, but this is gonna hurt - type of people. Which I need sometimes, that's the type of mentoring. If you're too nice to me, I'm just gonna, go get ice cream, eat my feelings. But she makes that perfect. You can do it. Why are you not doing anything? If it's for your own community, why wouldn't you? So at that point, I approached a couple organizations here in Portland about spaces for women of color, primarily wanting to get into tech, interested in tech, want to dip their toe and no pressure.
And that's when PDXWIT was the most excited about it. They jumped on it. They were like, what do you need? Where's the location? Do you need food? Like what type of average? They were just ready. It was at a really good transitional phase for them and we tried it and it was really fun. I mean, it was exhausting. Don't get me wrong. I was like losing hair. I think that it felt worth it cuz afterwards I had emails, I had thank you cards. I had people just really excited about the future and what the potential could be and just being in a space and seeing that room at a tech company, I was emotional. When you look out at the scene and you just see a room full of women of color in tech companies it's oh my gosh, this is what the world could be, type of a thing.
So that's where from there I was hooked, started doing that pretty much quarterly. It turned into BIPOC in tech. Eventually we started to see these really cool groups pop up like Latinx and tech, things like Asian in tech. It was really great to start seeing that pop out of that kind of moment. And then when I joined the board, it was just too much. I couldn't do both. I tried to help as much as I could. I started working on the scholarship program, which was really exciting. And just supporting the board and all things decisions, hiring staff and being part of the board was a game changer for me. Again, I never thought someone like me could be on a board, be worthy enough for a board. When I think of a board, I don't think of someone like me, like most people. That I'm smart enough. I met Rihana. Like what was it in the interview process? Or maybe it was just right after?
RM:
I think it was right after, because we were hired at the same time.
AL:
Right, right. It was like the same day. And I was like, oh, thank God. Like someone's all new to this as well. It has never been on a board before. We did the best we could, we did with what we had. And I think we really did some cool things for the organization. I remember handing out when the scholarships went out, I was just like, so overjoyed with what people were gonna be able to do with that money that maybe they wouldn't be able to do for their careers. Things like that I think really tied me to PDXWIT for a long time. And then yes, I was the co-chair for a little bit, which was great. And I had to step down in 2020 right before the pandemic that we just talked about.
We didn't realize that that was like right at the same time in February of 2020. But whenever PDXWIT needs anything, I swear if they just knocked on our door, like, Hey, we need MC and we can't find anybody. I will be there. And they know it, they know that it's done. What day? It's on my calendar. No questions asked, this is an organization that I really love. And I just see the effect it has on community, specifically my own, Latino community, and space is so important. So, yeah, that's pretty much what I do now. And now that the pandemics kind of, I don't know what the word is like softening, I don't know. Is there a word for what's happening right now?
RM:
Calming? I don’t know. All those words, I think we understand, but it's just such a pain. It's been such a pain point where it's like, yeah, it just doesn't hurt as bad.
AL:
[laughs] Yeah. It's not as lonely, I guess. Now I can go out and see people, and talk to them in person. Starting to look for other organizations, Latino, outdoors, I want to get involved in since I'm in the outdoor world. Partners in diversity, which is a local organization here, nonprofit focused on getting professionals of color connected. They're starting like community resource groups. So I wanna join that for the Latino group. Yah. I just love to be involved. And I mentioned to Anusha, I think free time is the most valuable resource. We have more than money, more than anything. We're only all given a certain amount. We never know when it's gonna end. And I wanna spend that helping people. That's really important to me. And sometimes you don't think it can be you, but like my mentor said, why not you? You're just whining, go do something.
RM:
I mean that same thing. I'm so glad that you were on the board at the same time, because I was a scrubby grad student. Like I wore the nicest outfit that I had, but all the rest of my clothes had holes in them cuz it's, well, I don't know. I don't wanna replace this, I'm in the lab all day.
AL:
But I remember seeing you and you look good. I thought you looked good.
RM:
Well, that was my best. That was my one like.. it had shoulder pads in it. [all laugh] It was this purple blazer with shoulder pads and I'm like, yes, I belong here.
AL:
You looked great. That one outfit. It did it. [laughs]
RM:
Yeah. COVID, hasn't been as kind. So I don't, I can't fit quite into it right now, but, yeah, that was my power pose. And then I left and I was like, uh, I'm just a grad student. I don't think this is gonna work, you know? Cuz everyone had jobs and has been so established in tech and yeah.
AL:
Yeah.
RM:
It was a funny, yeah, funny time.
AL:
The self-doubt is always there. Right? The self, the insecurity is always there.
RM:
It's rude.
AL:
It's rude. It's very rude. Yeah. I hate it.
AN:
[laughs] Well, Amanda, there's so much that I wanna dive into, that I wanna cover. I mean I had no idea by the way of like all of the different areas that you were involved in with PDXWIT. I knew that you were part of the board. I hadn't really gotten involved in PDXWIT until late 2018 and it was just a happy hour event. And so I kind of started volunteering more towards the tail end of 2019.
AL: OK.
AN:
Yeah, definitely. Seems like you had a lot of involvement. I want to go back to kind of what you were talking about in the beginning, just about your upbringing and how you grew up it. So it sounds like your grandparents are first generation immigrants. And I learned that they had the first Mexican restaurant in Hood River. And now they're about to get indexed into Hood River's historical society, right?
AL:
Yeah. Last year, September, 2021, they were inducted. Yeah, they did.
AN:
Oh, they already were. Okay, cool, cool.
AL:
Yeah, they did a play about their life. It was super adorable and it made me cry.
AN:
Like someone else did a play about their lives.
AL:
Yeah. They had two actors on zoom. You know, normally they do it in person. It's called cemetery tales. And so they pick a couple from the cemetery and they reenact their lives in Hood River. It's really adorable. And they did my grandparents…
RM:
Oh, ok I wasn’t sure if your grandparents were alive… are they alive?
AL:
No, no they're not alive, unfortunately.
RM:
Okay. Cause I was like maybe… [laughs] It would've just been a weird thing. Like, ah, yes, your grandparents in the audience and they're like, yes, we're still here. [laughs] Thank you. Thank you for that clarification.
AL:
No, it's very confusing. And they found me, actually, this is a funny story, which I think I should tell is that they did a search, like a chronological. One of who their, you know, grandchildren were and they Googled me and my board profile came up on PDXWIT, so that's how they found me. And they're like, Hey, are you a grandchild of Jose Maria Castilla from Hood River? And I'm like, yes, why are you gonna spam me? Are you trying to sell me something? And she's like, no, we're from Hood River historical society. Your grandparents are very well known in the Latino community and we wanna profile them for September. And they're like, we wanna interview about them. And I was like, I was really little, so I brought my tias, which are my aunts and my mom.
And they got to share the story a little bit further, more in detail than I could, about Jose’s Taco House. That was the name of it. And if you go to Hood River, people remember it like, it's crazy. They’re like those were your grandparents? Um, yeah, it was just so prominent. It's now like a Thai restaurant. [laughs] But it really was iconic. And it really did, I think this is where I really learned how to create space, is from them in my family. It doesn't matter where you're from or what you look like. Some people just need space and you feel lost and you feel confused. And if someone welcomes you and gives you a hot plate of food and they tell you everything's gonna be okay, and what do you need?
I learned that from them and they're just super amazing people from that somehow ended up in Hood river, Oregon from Texas to Michigan. I mean, they literally were farm workers, so they went all over the place, Washington. But then they made the restaurant, cooked food. My grandpa would even go and translate for people who just got here, down at their court cases or for their paperwork to get green cards. He would help them with their appointments. All of my aunts and uncles worked in the restaurant. It was really a family business. I remember my cousin who I'm close with she lives in Texas now, but she was a waitress, like very little, you know, it was just a really family owned place where you could find community.
And I don't think there were a lot of places like that specifically for Latinos in Oregon at the time. So people would drive from really far rural Oregon, other farm working communities just for space. And I think that is why I think creating space, seeing your people, is so important and it's like ingrained in me. And I will fight that even in the outdoor industry, as we know, it's not very… I just don't see my people there as often, whether it's kayaking or rock climbing, it's just not, you don't see that. And so if I can be part of efforts to get community in spaces like that and, and be part of the outdoor space, that's really what this is all about. And I really learned that from them. I think they really shaped that part of me when it comes to space and who belongs where. And why did they own that space? And like the tech world, when you think of tech, who owns that world and who's allowed and who isn't? Those are conversations that need to be had. And that's where I think women of color and tech came out for me.
AN:
Mm mm-hmm yeah. And so like, I mean, obviously your grandparents sound amazing. They sound like they made an impression on the community and were very integral parts of the area that you grew up in and obviously you are very, very actively involved in the community yourself. You're very passionate. You just said that you definitely want to give your time in those sorts of ways. And so it kind of sounds like they helped really shape that aspect of your life and how you viewed community. Can you talk a little bit more about other lessons and things that you might have learned growing up with your grandparents? And just around that area?
AL:
Yeah. I think when you grow up… it feels, it's challenging to feel the same as… you're kind of othered as an immigrant, or you're othered if you speak another language, you're othered if you have an accent you're othered, you know, other, other, other. And people focus on that too much. And my grandparents on the other hand thought that was beautiful. They loved things like that. They loved anybody from anywhere. You're from Germany? Yeah, come over here and sit here. I remember someone told me a story. I think it was my mom that the immigration officer used to eat at the restaurant. Literally the people they were detaining, my grandfather would have conversations with because he didn't believe in othering. He wanted to have conversations with everybody and see their perspective and understand things a little bit more.
And understanding other people is really hard, especially when you don't agree on certain things. It's hard to have conversations. And so they were just those kind of people that wanted to understand, talk to other people and not other, cuz they felt so othered, I think all the time in their existence. And I think the key thing that I took away from them the most is when you get to a level where you can help others, there's really no reason why you don't look back and help someone else who's struggling or someone else who needs a helping hand. If you can do it, if it's a plate of beans and rice, it's a plate of beans and rice. If it's a conversation at the courthouse, I have time, I have 20 minutes around 3:00 PM. I'll go! There was always this component of get somewhere, but always look back and try to bring someone with you. And I really keep that close to the chest.
RM:
Yeah. I mean, it's so funny cuz I feel like I've been fairly successful, but when I look at where my success comes from, it's because of the foundation of people who were supporting me. It's never just one person against the world. You have this old community and it just sounds like your grandparents were that force for so many people. Obviously they are gonna be inducted into the Hood river historical society. [laughs] Cuz I mean, if you're there and you have this clout because they were your grandparents, like that ripple effect is huge.
AL:
Huge. It's huge. And they have like 60 grandchildren. So that ripple effect is literally huge [laughs]
RM: Oh wow.
AL: Literally
AN: Wow.
RM:
Um, I wanna pivot a little bit talking about the outdoor industry. Hood River, beautiful place, lots of hiking, lots of wind surfing, all kinds of outdoor activities. And you mentioned earlier, you don't see your people in that space. I love the outdoors and I don't see my people in that space. It's like…
AL: It's unfortunate.
RM:
It really is because I’ve found so much connection and grounding and it's just so healthy for me to go out and take a hike, be in nature. Do you wanna talk about some of the challenges that you've seen with that in that industry specific[ly]? That's coming from the industry? And then what are the conversations that are coming up? Are you the only one bringing up these conversations? Like, Hey, where are the Latinos in this advertisement campaign?
AL:
Yeah hola [speaks spanish] [all laugh]
No, I think it's a movement I really do. And not just in outdoor industry as recreational, but even in, when I work for Metro for regional government, even in parks and nature, like public parks, right? It's open spaces and who belongs and who is welcome there. And there's a lot around when BLM happened, families that were being questioned in the parks or people policing them, community policing, if you will, if they were doing something that they felt was weird or different. And of course that component of othering. I think there is a movement, both just about the idea of open space and the outdoors in general, that's happening. That's really exciting. I started to really have conversations when I was working at Columbia sportswear and I did go to a couple seminars about, why aren't there people of color in a lot of outdoor industry ads? Why don't you see Black community hiking and biking and kayaking and why are the majority, why do they look very homogenous?
And it's really nice to see outdoor industry start to take a look at that and be like, why don't we? That absolutely happens. And starting to not only look at assets, digital assets and marketing and promotion from that lens, but actually getting active in partnership with organizations like Keen in particular, they partnered with outdoor Afro this past year. And another shoe that they designed, I believe please don't quote, don't quote me too hard on this, but it goes to programming to help Black community in swimming programs, cuz swimming is something that the community really wants to learn. And it's something that they feel like they're not connected to as much as, um, white community. And so they're really trying to support that initiative and that movement and connection to water. And all of that comes with that… who has access to water? Who owns water? And that's a whole other conversation.
But yeah, I love that I'm working in an industry that's cognizant of it. I'm glad to hear that there's movement behind it, but I think there can be so much more that could happen. Not just visibly in marketing, but what are partnerships that people can create to make more inclusive programming or partnerships for people to get outside no matter what. And I think a lot of that is associated with cost. I mean, have you rented a kayak? It's like a hundred dollars to rent a kayak. It's like you have to get gas to go out into the middle… cuz kayaking is pretty far, you gotta have all the tools and equipment, you gotta have a life jacket. You gotta have sometimes a license depending on where you're going. There's a lot of cost that comes with the outdoors, which is unfortunate.
You know, there's tools now. They're gonna, I read online, they're gonna permit our waterfalls here in Oregon just to go out for the day. I'm like a $5 permit to you is nothing. But to my family growing up that was potentially a meal. So, and that's our waterfall. It's just, it's things like that. I think that our communities, especially people like ourselves who are vocal that can say this is actually really harmful and what can we do to help this? Is there programs or companies that wanna sponsor a couple of the permits as there are people who wanna donate - if you buy one, you can donate one - things like that that will help those that don't have access or don't have funds for just going to a waterfall. That's just really, that's just really sad to me in particular.
RM:
Yeah. When I think of my connection to the outdoors, it has 100% come from friends of mine who have grabbed my hand and taken me on the way. Or, my boyfriend now husband, at the time he had hundreds of dollars of camping equipment. What I looked to buy my own sleeping bag and I was like, excuse me, how much, excuse me, $200 for this, for this? I'm still sleeping on the ground. [laughs]
AL:
Yeah.
RM:
Yeah. And so, but it's like, you're completely right. Cuz I didn't know if I was into the outdoors. I didn't know if I was gonna be into this thing and I'm not gonna invest. I can't afford to invest. Right?
AL:
Right.
RM:
Even a hundred dollars into this. And I'm just so fortunate to have had people in my life, not just my husband, but friends who, you know, it's like, oh, do you know how much it is to rent a kayak? No, because I have a friend who has a kayak. And that's the only reason why I've been able to access those activities is because I've had these people in my life. And so it took me almost 30 years to be able to get that access. What does that look like for so many more people?
AL:
Which is crazy. I worked at a windsurfing school in Hood river and I knew the only way I could ever try kiteboarding or wind surfing is if I worked at a school. It's like $300 to try back in the early 2000s. I can't imagine what it is now. And don't even tell me if you looked it up, but I tried it and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so much fun, but oh my goodness, is it expensive? Like, wow. Like just to enjoy wind on the water, things like that. And you tell my Latino community, you wanna attach yourself to a cut and go down the river? They're like, are you crazy? [laughs]
RM:
You wanna spend a thousand dollars to do it? OK. No, thank you. [laughs]
AL:
It's just, it's things like that. Snowboarding. You think about the price for anything it's really extravagant and who owns those pricing models? It's tied to sometimes parking and tolls and whether you have the Northwest natural pass and there's all these things that is just kind of like, it's not worth the effort. We'll just, nevermind. We'll just, our backyard is it. And not that the backyard or the park next door isn't it. But I feel like I just wish that they could see the magic that happens when you're out in these outdoor spaces. And what happens when you're in a kayak in the mouth of Astoria where the ocean meets the river and how beautiful, they're never gonna experience that. And it could be just due to these arbitrary barriers that we've put on community from experiencing that.
And you're so fortunate that you had people that could usher you into that, as did I growing up in Hood River, Oregon, I could work at places. I could get discounts on passes by working a lift, but what about those that live in the cities? Or even more rural areas it's really, really challenging. And that's just, I hope that this awakening in the outdoor space, specifically from the pandemic about being outside and who owns outside and land in general and water, native community has been having these conversations for decades. And it's just unfortunate that it's not until now till a pandemic where we're all shuttered. And we could only go to these spaces where we're starting to have some actual conversations about who owns them and what are those barriers of entry. So I think it's exciting. I think it's the one thing that I think I can look forward to out of what happened is our appreciation for the outdoors and hopefully more people getting out there.
RM:
Well, you know, what's funny too, is that a big barrier that I didn't realize that I had until afterwards is the fact that you don't see… like I don't see Black people out hiking and stuff like that.
AL: It’s scary.
RM: I mean, my experience for a long time was like, I watch horror movies. [laughs] If the Black person goes to the woods first, they don't come back [laughs] and you want me to go on a hike? I've gotten to the point where like, I'm through, I'm fine. I can come back. But but that was the stereotype, not just the horror movies, I'm gonna die first. I know. Right? Like my friend group who goes hiking, they're all white. Like [laughs] it doesn't look good for me.
AL:
I’m dead. I've seen this, I've read this script before [all laugh] Not today.
RM:
Anusha, do you have much of a connection to the outdoors? Is that your jam?
AN:
I mean, I like being active. I like being outdoors, but I do agree there isn't a lot of people that look like me that are out there. I mean, I've recently gotten into paddle boarding and so, last couple of summers I've learned to do it and I'm out there. And the last time I was out there, I was out there with my sister and there was no one out there that looked like us. It's just it's uncomfortable for a while until we're kind of out there just like getting in the groove with the actual activity. But no, I fully understand, I grew up really seeing people that looked like me and I definitely did not. There were things that I wanted to try, but I probably backed out of it for that reason. So [laughs]
AL:
Mm-hmm and it's not so much, like people are like, what are you doing here? Which absolutely does happen. I mean, that's happened to my family in the past year, so that absolutely that community policing, we're gonna call the cops on you, you're on the wrong whatever. But it's also like, when you don't see, it's not common, people are like, it's the looks, right? And it's not that they're being divisive or anything. It's just there's just this Mexican family out rock climbing, all of a sudden, you know? And it really stands out. It does, I don't always wanna stand out. Like I don't always wanna be like that thing that everybody's drawn to, cuz it's different. Sometimes you just wanna blend in and that unfortunately does happen as well.
RM:
Uh, when I was in Hood river, this was like maybe two years ago I was wearing, I have certain hiking dresses or camping dresses where it's like I just take this camping. I don't care if it gets dirty. And we were walking along the river, the Columbia river, like going to Pfriem or something, going to one of the breweries. Oh yeah, it's great. I love it out there. But I was wearing my camping dress and like, I don't know, something over top to cover my shoulders and hiking boots, my ratty hiking boots, cuz we were coming back from a hike and this woman was like, oh my God, can I take a photo of you? And I was like, what? Cuz I was this outdoor Black person who was dressed in… and it broke her brain and she wanted a photo and I was kinda like… it was just such a weird moment that I was like, sure. [laughs] It was so weird. I was like, Sure. Okay.
AN:
Oh my God. I dunno how to feel about that.
RM:
I know looking back, I was like, this was way more messed up than I thought at the moment. But I'm just gonna send this to my friends in Florida. They will never believe that… they don't think Black people hike [laughs] I was holy, what is happening? Why did I agree with this? And then, I went and I was like, this is just another day in the life.
AL:
Yeah. Of, yeah. And to other people it's horrifying. But like honestly, when you hear from other people of color and experiences I had in the park, it's like, oh my gosh, it happens a lot. The worst thing is like, hopefully she's not like trying to sell that photo in any way to anybody. [all laugh]
RM: I didn’t even think of that! [laughs] Well if you see a photo of me, in a red dress, looking all scrappy, in Hood River, that’s where that photo came from.
AL:
I’m gonna send it to you and be like, look at this new bootcamp. Oh my gosh. That is insane. But a common narrative I think.
AN:
Well, yeah. I mean all really important conversations. I'm happy to hear that you're able to be a part of those conversations and I'm curious for all of the various community initiatives that you're involved in and with the background that you have, how do you think that affects how you approach your professional space? You're a recruiter, you recruit for top talent. How do you approach that with the mindset and the lens that you have?
AL:
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of ego in hiring, right? I'm a hiring manager, I'm a recruiter. This is my company. You wanna dance for me? That can happen. Absolutely. It does. I'm not gonna lie. People have all had that experience at one point when interviewing, what can you do for us? Here's the test, here's it? You know? And I take a different approach. I like human approach. That's why I love the conversation about humanizing tech, let's humanize recruitment, let's humanize the interviewing experience. I really do comfortable lens and I operate from, I can learn from everybody in this process. Everyone's like an expert or a consultant to me. It doesn't matter what the subject is. I'm obviously not a subject matter expert at everything. So there's something I can learn from in every conversation.
But I think there's something really good and human that comes out of that. When you feel like every candidate's gonna give you value in every conversation, you're gonna get something out of it. And that's how I approach every conversation. And honestly, you get more honesty out of that. You get more relatable conversations when with that approach, you get a lot of realities of what they're looking for. And sometimes you can be honest about, Hey, we don't have that. Don't apply here. Like you're looking for something different. I can show you direction in a different way because we don't have that. And that's just, I think I take that with me when I talk about space and how you treat people and humanizing moments that are very, what's the word I'm looking for?
Mechanical, you apply, you get a phone screen, you need a manager, you pass that manager. How do you integrate human moments into something very technical? I operate from, I have something to learn from this person, even if they're not qualified for the job, even if we're not the right fit for them, I'm gonna learn something today. And I think that definitely leads to more quality conversations that leads to them finding the right position and the right company, because they can be honest with me about what they're looking for. And I can be honest if we don't have that. I think that just leads to better conversations when you operate from you're an expert and I'm gonna lead. I'm gonna learn from you. And I'm gonna support you, but if this isn't right, that's okay. We're just starting to talk. People always \ try to say recruitings like dating and I always rebuff that brutally I'm like, how dare you, I'm a professional! There’s a science to this! Really, when you think about dating, you are treating the other person as an expert in themselves. You're giving them a level of respect when you're dating. And so I think that's where I can equate that into recruiting. And you get closer to someone and you understand 'em a little bit more which leads to better hiring.
RM:
Part of my duties as interim is I'm currently hiring two positions. Can you give me some advice as to how do I get these human connections? How do you get to that point where… or you have that mindset of how am I gonna learn from this person? What are the types of questions I need to ask? What do I need to do for this approach?
AL:
Well, it’s different. Cuz you gotta think about the body of work, right? I try not to focus… I learned this a while ago at a recruiting conference, someone really amazing talked about focus. So sorry, I can't remember their name, but I remember they were like, don't hire a person for day one, hire them for day one and beyond. What are the things you wanna accomplish in that first year and focus on that. You can have a CPA and 10 years of accounting, but can they meet the goals and wanna meet the goals of what you wanna do in that first year and beyond? Do they wanna go through a transitional phase? Do they wanna be part of a fast growing company? Do they wanna crunch numbers weekly and focus on that versus this checklist of like, okay, you have five years of CPA.
Okay. That doesn't mean that they wanna do what you want them to do in the future. Or even the near future feels like recruiters often hire forthat checklist and day one and sign the paperwork and the salary. There's so much more to people and so much more to humans. I also look for people that resonate, not just with the logistics of day one, like what your salary is and your location. I really do ask, why do you want this job? What is exciting for you? And if you want something out of it, I'll be honest with you that it's not here. I want you to make the best choice for you. And I operate from, how can I help you in your journey? But also I have a decision to make, I have a path that I'm heading towards and if we match great.
And if we don't that's okay too. There's no hard feelings for me. If you turn me down or I turn you down, we're trying to meet together on this same level, I guess. Do our goals align together and if they don't, that's okay,, that's totally fine. And I'm never mad at anyone if they turn me down, if this isn't the right fit for them, I try to just be, I'm paying a really realistic picture of what we're trying to do in the next year, in the position in particular. And if that's something that excites you, awesome. If that's something that you're like, Ugh, if I have to get out of bed every day and talk to this person every day and run numbers every day, I would be really… don't take this job, please. Don't take this, do yourself a favor, find something you're passionate about that you wanna do. And that's really gonna get you the best person.
AN:
That's really good advice. Rihana, I saw you taking notes.
[all laugh]
RM:
Podcasting is an audio medium, you don’t have to narrate! [laughs]
AL:
She’s like, Rhiana, Write that down.
RM:
[laughs] I'm recording it. So I can just like, [rewind sound] what did I write here?
AN:
So Amanda, we talked a lot about your involvement with PDXWIT and all of the various ways that you were involved. Are there projects or groups or initiatives that you're involved with right now that you're really excited about that you wanna talk about? I'm sure our listeners are eager to hear what you've been up to on that front.
AL:
Yeah. I've stopped whining, according to my mentor. Not whining. I am part of partners for diversity. I'm trying to get involved in their community resource group for Latinos. So this is the first time I'm trying to do it, like I mentioned, partners for diversity, easy local diversity organization that welcomes people of color to Portland because that's a thing here, where you need to be welcomed and to see other people, a big need. I'm glad it's been brought up. It's hard to tell people like, Hey, you're in Portland and if you wanna meet people of color, there's an event we actually have! You can do that!
But it's great. I think they're a phenomenal organization. Getting involved in that community resource group, they're kind of just starting, so dipping my toes into that. I'm really excited to see where these community resource groups go and what kind of space we can provide. At Keen they have a couple groups they have of course, an equity group that employees can join. That’s absolutely amazing, but there's another one that I recently joined. I haven't gone to a meeting yet, but I'm really excited about it's called the together team and they focus on company initiatives, diversity initiatives as a whole, and they're kind of the voice to leadership on certain direction that we need to take. Whether that's around community organizations or DEI so I haven't done, I haven't been to a meeting yet.
I'm super excited about it, cuz it's really hard to make change as an individual contributor. It's hard to have a voice. So if there is a group like that at any organization, I'm always like pick me, I get really excited about things like that. But always gotta step back after a few years, I can mention like, can't keep it the same. And I really wanna get involved in Latinos outdoors, because I'm back in the outdoor industry now. So looked at the local groups. They aren't doing a lot cuz of COVID. So they're slowly starting to dig their way back into doing group things. And I would love to be a part of that, but not only Latinos, I would love all people of color to enjoy the outdoors and that's just something I would really love to kind of foster and maybe even volunteer if I could. So to lead a group or take groups, or I'm not very good at outdoor stuff, I'll be very honest. I love it, but I'm not like hardcore rock climber or very good at snowboarding or anything like that. But it's fun to just be the person that can maybe take some folks out and, and drive the big van and get people.
RM:
Yeah. Well it's like, there's something about having the confidence to go and do that. Right? You know, just if you have the confidence to go into a space that you're not gonna be represented in. It's easy to take someone who might not be confident who might self select out. Cuz it's like, I've gotten to the point where I'm taking my friends hiking and I'm like, I might not be the best, but I know how to…
AL:
Oh yeah I definitely got us lost before. [laughs]
RM:
Yeah. But it's like, I know how to get the permits. I know where to go to get them. I have every time I go, I have the maps and I know what we need to bring and I can always get extra and I can just make it… my confidence.
AL:
I have an REI compass and a first aid kit, so…
RM:
Yeah, no, I have one of those little whistles that is a compass and holds natural. I've got all that, all that stuff, but yeah. There's something about having the confidence to go into a space and then taking folks with you and having the confidence to create those spaces. It makes folks feel welcome. And I think that's one thing that you are really good at doing.
AL:
Oh, thank you.
RM:
It's true. It's true. And we didn't go into deep detail, but your creating the women of color and tech, put PDXWIT on this momentum to make these really big changes because that event happened. It transformed into BIPOC and tech. And then all of a sudden, the leadership demographic changed and now look at all of the different people who are the face, you know, all the staff are people of color. And I think you started that planted the seed and this is what you can see what you've grown.
AL:
Oh, that's awesome. I hope so. [laughs] I don't like to give myself that much credit, but thank you.
RM:
I mean, but it's true. It's true. You know, you can see it's like…
AL:
That means a lot.
RM:
It's like looking through the history and finding, what was that paradigm shift? And it took a minute, but it rolled into something really great. And it's continuing to grow!
AL:
It was worth all of it. It was worth all, yeah. [laughs]. Cuz there was some long nights, but worth it. Absolutely. A thousand percent wouldn't change a thing. Iit was so amazing.
AN:
Well, Amanda, you're a rockstar and we obviously love talking to you. This has been a great conversation. I feel like we could just keep going, but we..
AL:
Yeah I mean let’s get drinks after this!
[all laugh and joke]
AN:
But as we start getting close to wrapping up this segment, I do wanna leave some space for you to leave our listeners with some words, a call to action or any advice that you have. I'm sure that our listeners would love to hear it.
AL:
Yeah. Oh, advice is always hard. But like my grandparents, like the people before me, if you see in, like my mentor said, if you see something, why not you? Why not help others? Why not look back? And you know, a simple thing, I would love to see people like me at events create an event, or I would love more Latinos in the outdoors. Start attending those nonprofits to foster people getting to the outdoors. Or I really want my company to be more inclusive. Talk to HR, start an ERG at your company. Those little things, those tiny little things really do make a difference. And I don't think people realize that cuz although you're just one person, one person can change things dramatically if they just care enough. And they remember to look back, reach for another hand, like my grandparents would do.
And just help somebody up. And it doesn't take much time. It doesn't it time, like I said, is your most valuable resource. Why wouldn't you spend it helping other people? And PDXWIT has all of that. You have scholarship committee, you could read scholarship applications. I still try to do that. Uou got a mentorship program, you can volunteer in really cool organizations like partners for diversity, be a buddy, welcome someone to Portland, little things like that doesn't mean you have to dedicate thousands of hours and run these huge events. You can do really small things that make a really big difference in someone's life. And it could be life changing. So I urge you! And I met some phenomenal people by doing it like Rihanna and Anusha and you just meet the most amazing people. I promise you it's worth the time. Just take the time. Don't watch another Netflix show. They're ridiculous. The shows are terrible. [laughs] Go volunteer. Use your time wise. It's precious. Help someone.
AN:
I love that. Thank you so much. Well I know that our listeners are gonna love listening to this episode. Love listening to what you've been up to and where you've been. So thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. And a huge shout out to our awesome podcast team and to my co-host Rihana, all of your dedication to this podcast make it possible for us to share these stories. And then of course to our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in and we'll catch you on the next episode.
RM:
Thanks Amanda. Bye.
AL:
Thanks everyone.
Outro:
PDXWIT is a 501C3 nonprofit. We're building a better tech industry by creating access, dismantling inequities and feeling belonging. Find out more about us at www.PDXWIT.org. Like this podcast? Subscribe and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Wanna give us feedback? Contact us podcast@pxwit.org to help us improve and ensure you learn and grow from the stories you hear on humanizing tech.