Zhou Fang: API Immigration Stories
On this episode, we were joined by Zhou Fang, Founder and EDI practitioner at Intersectional Group LLC.
Zhou Fang’s work focuses on intersectionality and interconnection, on curiosity and empathy, helping organizations and teams grow in a meaningful way. A Director of Communications with 10+ years of experience in partnership, account management, business development, people operations, and event planning with a track record of independent execution and building lasting partnerships.
Zhou is passionate about women's rights, pay equality, immigration reform, as well as applying her experience and expertise to cultural and social change.
Tune in to hear Zhou and Anusha discuss important topics like pay transparency, navigating capitalism, building a diverse community, and having confidence to advocate for yourself! You matter!
Learn more about PDXWIT here, Professional Networking - Women In Technology | PDXWIT — PDXWIT.
Transcript
Intro:
Welcome to Humanizing Tech, a PDXWIT podcast. We interview people to dig below the surface of their achievements and challenges showcasing the story behind the story. We believe that focusing on the person and humanizing their lived experiences will help us shape the future of tech.
Anusha Neelam:
Before we get started, I want to acknowledge the land we are on, wherever we're turning in from. PDXWIT recognizes the ongoing violence, trauma, and erasure indigenous Oregonians and Native American face. We are recording from Portland today. Portland rests on the traditional village sites of the Multnomah, Kathlamet, Clackamas, Chinook, Tualatin Kalapuya, Molalla and many other tribes who made their homes along the Columbia River. We endeavor to have this acknowledgement be more than just words. The tech industry is building the future of our world, and it is up to us to ensure that there is a future for all. To find out more about how we're supporting the future of indigenous Oregonians and Native Americans, please visit our website. We'll add a link in the show notes as well.
AN:
Hello. Hello. Welcome back to our lovely listeners. I hope you guys haven't missed us too much. Um, I know we're kicking the season off a little later than we usually do, but that just means that we have an exciting season ahead with an amazing lineup of guests. And, um, this is your host Anusha, she/her. I'm so excited to be back hosting again for season five, which is crazy that we're at season five. Um, but what a better way to kick off other than our first 65 ish degree day here in Portland, which is a, uh, I think the first this season. So, very excited about that. Um, and I'm also personally so, so excited to spend the next 40 plus minutes with our guests today, who I've personally gotten to know over the last year or so, and I can say that I am a huge fan. So let me just get right into it and intro her so that we can just get started talking. Our guest today is someone who has played an active role in the PDXWIT community for many years now. She's an immigrant from China, and the founder and principal equity, diversity and inclusion practitioner of Intersectional Group, LLC, an EDI consulting practice with a focus on intersectionality, empathy, and compassion, as well as curiosity. She also serves on multiple boards in the local community. So without further ado, welcome Zhou Fang.
Zhou Fang:
Thank you, Anusha. And I cannot agree more. It's such a nice day and I feel very lucky to be spending the next hour with you all.
AN:
Yeah, well, welcome. Um, you know, when I was sitting down to, uh, figure out what we, you know, might wanna talk about and like what our conversation should be, I was just thinking about how like, the first time, and I don't know if you remember this the first time you and I met, uh, I think it was like over a year ago, but we like met at a, at a bar
ZF:
I remember
AN:
and remember we were talking about <laugh>, our experiences in tech and as, uh, AAPI women and just like the struggles we've had to deal with just in the tech space, but I feel like we instantly clicked and, um, yeah, it was just like a really good, easy conversation. So I'm excited to continue that here. But, um, before we dive any further, I do wanna ask you, I know you just came back from China and you mentioned that you're recovering from jet lag. So how are you doing? How is your trip? Uh, tell us everything.
ZF:
Yeah, no, I, I remember the moment we met as well and we shared a beer and we shared a conversation about, you know, as a, you know, woman of color in the API community. And I feel like, just like it was like yesterday. So I'm so happy to see you today. And yes, I just got back from China, um, last week and I've been taking naps every day and today I feel mostly okay. And, um, so yeah, it was the first time I went back since 2016, so it was kind of like a big trip, um, and was eventful. Uh, I got to spend time with my family and I met the children there for the first time, many of them. And they impressed me so much. Like kids today, they are so smart, it's incredible.
AN:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
ZF:
Um, and, uh, I'm still going through a lot of the notes I took, I took when I was in China.
Cause the last seven years, you know, from 2016 to 2023, roughly six and a half and seven years, a lot has changed. So I took a lot of notes when I was there. Um, mainly because one, um, uh, my work right now is around EDI, so I really wanted to document what I experienced and what I witnessed when I was in China. And two, I really wanted to share my, uh, experience, um, as kind of like an immigrant who went back to their home country and what the difference is and kind of the reentry cultural experience. So I have been going through my notes and um, uh, and I'm sharing my experience in writing and also probably in speaking, uh, in the coming days. And, uh, would love to have your feedback, uh, if anyone checks it out. So, so yeah, it was, it was a very eventful trip and uh, I'm very grateful to have this opportunity to go back and visit my family, so thank you for asking.
AN:
Yeah, of course. Well, I mean, that sounds like a really, uh, like it sounds like a fun, like maybe even emotional and pro like productive trip all at once. So, um, I'm glad that you were able to take that time.
ZF:
Yeah, same. It was cathartic.
AN:
Good, good. Well, um, the first question that I have for you today might be a little bit, uh, surprising for some of our listeners, especially those who have been listening to the podcast, um, since the very beginning. Um, but you were actually on the PDXWIT podcast back in 2019 and, uh, you came on to share your visa challenges at the time with our then hosts. Um, but you did so under an alias name Ruth Lesser, and you did that to protect yourself and your identity. Um, and when we spoke a few weeks ago, you um, mentioned that it was something that you were ready to talk about and just like openly discuss like why you chose to share, share your story in that way. So, um, so tell me more about that. Like what was that experience like? Why did you end up having to go by an alias name? I feel like there's so much to uncover there, so get us started <laugh>.
ZF:
Yeah. Um, I had a lot of flashbacks when you emailed me for this episode cuz I was like, oh man, like last time I was here was like four years ago and it was entirely different circumstances. Um, so yeah, so like the first time I spoke at the PDXWIT podcast was like four years ago in 2019 and I believe it was actually the first season and I did use an alias name, Ruth Lesser. And, um, I did that, um, because one, uh, I just couldn't not share my experience knowing that I was not the only person going through that experience during, during that certain period of time. Uh, and two, um, I couldn't risk exposing my identity to the immigration system as well as my then employer.
AN:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
ZF:
um, feeling that I had to share it. Uh, and I was at the same time I was afraid actually. So fear had a lot to do with it
AN:
mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
ZF:
But, um, what motivated me the most was at the time I was doing my own research, trying to find help online, like for immigration help, legal help I, the information online or reporting, say media coverage was so little I could find only one article online that described one immigrants experience that was kind of similar to mine. And that was it. And I was very surprised by that. So I decided to do it under an alias name. Um, and what was the experience like? Um, the situation itself was very intense and dehumanizing cuz it happened very quickly and unexpectedly and we had to gather enough information and paperwork, like evidence to prove that, um, my stay in the United States was legal and legit in a very short period of time. Um, so the then of the administration, if you are remember in 2019 was the Trump administration.
ZF:
So the whole system treated H-1B visa holders, aka skilled foreign workers, like immigrants like myself. Yeah. They treated us poorly and challenged many folks, uh, legal status during that time. Um, so, and now I was one of them unfortunately. Um, and again it took me about three months to, uh, work with my, uh, immigration attorney to prove that, you know, I deserve to be here. So the experience itself was, uh, uh, challenging and, uh, dehumanizing. And even right now, thinking back, I was like, how did I get through that? It was just, uh, such an incredible time, but I'm really, I was very relieved, you know, of course when I learned, oh yes, my paperwork is fine and I'm, and I can stay
AN:
mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
ZF:
Um, but I, I also felt very fortunate I was able to find a platform like PDXWIT, to share the experience
AN:
mm-hmm. <affirmative>
ZF:
so that people who might have um, similar journey can feel like, oh, they are not alone because there are so many of us.
AN:
Yeah. Wow. I mean, I I did listen to that two part episode that you did at that time, um, before we record this cuz I wanted to dive into it and, um, yeah, I, how, how brave of you, first of all for wanting to speak up even amidst your own struggles and, um, getting, you know, your visa denied it sounds like at the time. But, um, I'm also, yeah, I, I think it's interesting that we don't have as much of a conversation around that in the tech space. Um, or even really just like in any space for that matter. Um, although we've got so many foreign workers in the United States and I just don't think that's something that as many, um, folks have maybe a platform to be able to vocalize what exactly they are dealing with. So I appreciate you, um, explaining that to us a little bit more. And, um, for our listeners who are interested, we'll definitely be linking that two part episode <laugh> here, so you can listen to that. And I am just so excited that you can be here four years later and, uh, be able to just come on this podcast and have a conversation as Zhou Fang <laugh>.
ZF:
Yes.
AN:
<laugh>. Um, yeah.
ZF:
Yeah. It's funny because I think I'm the only person who had a cutout, like a profile, not like a real photo
AN:
<laugh>. I saw that. I saw that. And I was wondering, I was like, why did I never realize this before? Because I spend time on our podcast page and I kind of go through like folks that we've interviewed with the in the past and I don't know why that never caught my attention. <laugh>.
ZF:
<laugh> Yeah. No, now I use my real name and that feels really good.
AN:
Yeah. Yeah. And we'll use your real actual picture that you gave us, <laugh>
ZF:
<laugh>.
AN:
Um, well thanks for walking us through that a little bit. Um, and I, so I wanna shift gears a little bit. You mentioned in that episode how like important it was for you at that time, especially to build a community and how you were really surprised about how many people were, you know, there to help you no matter what it is that you needed, whether that was like lawyers and you needed legal support or, um, you know, folks in the tech community. Um, it seems like you leaned in heavily to the PDXWIT community at the time. So, um, I was wondering if you can talk to us a little bit about the importance of community and how that's helped shape your experiences in the tech space, like in general beyond that. Yeah,
ZF:
Yeah. Community for sure. Uh, I was genuinely surprised at the time because I didn't realize how many people would be willing to help someone like me. Like, it's not like I didn't think I would be worthy to them. It's just because the situation was so hard. Like the entire time I didn't know what I was doing for the most part. I just knew somehow I had to come up with a plan and sort of save myself in a way. So when I kind of seeked out and, um, asked people for help, I was very surprised in a very good way that people were like, this is entirely just astonishing to us, but we also don't know what to do, but we want to help. So there was, I mean, even now thinking about that, I still feel it's like a wild experience. How, because today's world, it's so polarizing, right?:
It's like there were a lot of noises online and in real life and we sometimes forget. Um, there are more kindness in the world still, and if we are able to kind of, to find it or to experience it. So, um, as difficult as the whole ordeal was, I was supported by many, many people who were not only sympathetic, but also just were willing to do the real work. Um, so some of them, like you mentioned, helped me find like legal, legal support, like some nonprofit organizations, some tried to get me a new job actually. Um, I had a friend who was in the tech recruiting world. She, I, she, she did everything she could to find me a new sponsor, aka, a new employer so that I would have a new visa sponsor. Um, that didn't work out, but she tried super hard and I really appreciated that support.
And of course, you know, some people help me with like mental health help cause I was at a very dicey place. Yeah, yeah. And um, so that was also when I learned, um, again, you know, mental health is so important and for anyone or everyone who feels isolated or alone, um, I just cannot recommend enough just really look for mental health help, um, in any ways you can. So yeah, so, um, a lot of those folks worked and, uh, still work in a tech space and they belong to the PDXWIT community as well as the larger kind of tech community in Portland. And I feel like beyond the tech space, I think that, um, like I mentioned, most people are genuinely kind and, um, so to give an example
AN:
mm-hmm. <affirmative>
ZF:
like to the immigration system, right? Like me, I'm not necessarily a real person. Um, I don't, so try to explain. So to the immigration system, I pretty much exist on a piece of paper. Like I'm attached to a series of number, like I have a number assigned to me, like whenever I go, I have to carry that number with me
AN:
mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
ZF:
Um, and there's no personality or character beyond that wide identity, which is, I'm an immigrant, but to people in the tech community or beyond tech community, uh, I'm a real person, right? Like, you can see me, uh, I'm a, you can talk to me, I'm a woman, I'm from China, I work in tech, I'm a communications person. Like I have my own, you know, quirks and characters and personalities. Like I'm real. Yeah. So I think a community to me really is a place where you feel that, uh, you matter. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like, and you belong. Like, not just because you are an immigrant and you are from a different country and you are not a citizen and you rely on a piece of paper or a sponsorship, that doesn't mean you are less than. Um, it just means that people in the community, they still see you as who you are and, um, you matter. So yeah. So that really, really helped me, um, during that time.
AN:
Yeah. Thank you for walking us through that. I think that was like a really important differentiation that you made regarding like your immigration experience versus what it was like to be a part of a community. And I'm curious too, uh, you know, you have this experience as an immigrant moving to a completely different country, not knowing anyone it sounds like, and, and creating this like life for yourself. What would you say to, um, someone who is in a similar position, whether they're an immigrant or they have moved from out of state and into a new state and are building their community kind of from ground up. What are the best ways to go about like, building that community? Like what sorts of resources would you recommend to somebody? Um, it doesn't have to be super specific, but I'm just curious. Cause I feel like that's probably something that's on people's mind, even for, for me, having been someone that's lived in Portland my whole life and trying to build like, new communities, like, I still kind of struggle with that. So I'm curious to know what your, your take on that is.
ZF:
I think building a community, um, requires intention. Um, so it, it's real work. Like we can't just say the thing about community is even when you grow up at a place and you live at a place for a very long time, it's still different from having a community. Like you can be living at a place and feel entirely isolated. Um, I think a community, um, yes it is, it can be a space, it can be a place, but I feel also it can be a feeling like when you feel you are in a community, um, that's when you know, uh, you belong. So I feel like that requires a lot of intention and real work. And for me, um, I'm not gonna say, you know, oh, one day I wake up and I want to find my own community so I go to PDXWIT or some other organizations.
It just, it doesn't happen overnight. So, um, that's why I mentioned intention. And I also wanna say patience. Uh, it takes a lot of time to curate something and build something for yourself. Like myself, for example. Um, I'm not saying this is the right way to do it.
AN:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
ZF:
um, the way I did it was, um, I think it was around 2018 during that time I realized that my whole life and my circle in Portland, it was, um, largely white. And I oftentimes felt like, I don't know, how do I engage or it just, at some point it's not as enjoyable anymore. So I felt, I felt very alone, especially, you know, working in tech experiencing, uh, microaggressions and, and some other, uh, unfair treatment, but having no one to talk to because everyone is like, I don't, you know, they don't get it.
So, and then I felt I need to change it. So at that point, I intentionally and Portland, uh, PXWIT is part of it is I started to go to a event and started volunteering and started to meet people, you know, first of all women, right? Like, cuz the tax base is still very kind of male dominant
AN:
mm-hmm. <affirmative>
ZF:
So I go to a place where I can find women and then I see people of color and women of color and people with different identities and from different communities. And then that's when I started feel like, oh, I see people who are more like me now. And with efforts like you have to put in the work, like with efforts, you are able to build your own community. Um, and it's been a few years now and I feel like I can, I can say with confidence that now my circle is not majority white. Like my circle is colorful, it's vibrant, it's diverse
AN:
mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
ZF:
And, um, and I feel more comfortable in my community right now than, you know, seven years ago.
AN:
That's great. That's awesome. And, and that's, I I love, love the way that you've laid that out. I think it's super, um, it like inspires me and I, I I feel like I struggle with much of what you're laying out in terms of like being pre, you know, Portland is a predominantly white city, and so I feel like finding those communities, um, is a lot more challenging. And I you can bet than I will be texting you for more advice on that at a later time. <laugh>,
ZF:
Yes. You have my number. Let's hang out
AN:
<laugh>. Yeah, for sure. Um, okay, so I wanna, um, go back to something that you mentioned again in that like episode that you did in 2019. Um, our host at the time had asked you, uh, if you, uh, if there was anything in the tech space that you could make improvements to or change, what would it be? And um, you mentioned that pay transparency, um, you hope that pay transparency would get better. And I'm curious to know, um, four years from then how you feel like that has changed for the better, the worse or the same. I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
ZF:
I think it, when I, oh gosh, I, so I did not listen to the 2019 episode again, um, before our conversation. And it was really funny to me because even four years ago, in 2019 when I was dealing with immigration, I was like, yeah, that one thing, it has to be paid transparency because this is something I've been focusing on for a long time and I'm actively working on it right now as well. So it just feels like even four years ago
AN:
mm-hmm. <affirmative>
ZF:
it was that one thing I would want to change in the tech space or just work, you know, workplace in general.
AN:
Yeah.
ZF:
And I think in the last four years I did see improvements and changes for the better. Like for example, many job boards, including I think PDXWIT job board, um, we like these boards are now encouraging employers to share their salary ranges, uh, and not just like wild ones like from a hundred K to 200, but like reasonable salary ranges, um, with benefits and accommodations, et cetera. You know, for, um, for parents or for people with, uh, special needs, et cetera. So I think that is like, uh, something we can see like improvements and good changes. And uh, in addition to that, a few states and cities including, um, Washington State, California, Colorado, and New York, uh, as well as New York City, they have all passed and implemented pay transparency laws and policies. Um, and on the federal level there are also paid transparency policies in place for federal employees.
So those are all like things that's been happening the last few years. Um, and going beyond that, I believe the European Union also is doing something similar. So not only in the states but on a global scale, pay transparency is happening. Um, however, you know, our state Oregon, um, which is neighbors to Washington and California states, we still don't have comprehensive pay transparency laws and policies. So, uh, apparently there is a lot of work to do, uh, when it comes to pay transparency and pay equity. But I do see, um, because I follow this work and I do this work, um, I feel very hopeful that including Oregon State, we are gonna see more pay transparency policies and laws and practices happen in the next few years.
AN:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, why do you feel like that progress toward making pay transparency? Like you said, there are some states who have implemented this quite some time ago, um, and there, you know, there are other states that have not yet implemented it or don't seem to be wanting to implement that, you know, nec necessarily anytime in the near future from what we know. Um, obviously there's a lot of factors and there's a lot of politics behind it. But I'm curious to know, especially as an EDI professional and someone who is very passionate about this like topic and this subject, I know you do research around this as well. Um, why do you feel like pay transparency is still not where we would like it to be? Um, I mean obviously four years is not like a super lengthy period of time, but I'm curious because I know from my experience, uh, in Oregon, I still feel like it's, if there are salary ranges that are posted, it is that wildly fluctuating like salary range where they're just trying to meet like <laugh> a a like a requirement on some board or something. And I'm just curious to know what it is with employers and why they wanna drag their feet on that as much. Because I think it causes a lot of issues on both ends to be honest, <laugh>.
ZF:
Right, right. I think one thing, of course on the kind of institutional, uh, level, I think bureaucracy, like everything just takes a long time. And, and I think every state with different, say, um, leading parties, um, the kind of the protocol is different. So every state would have different, um, I think most of them are similar but still, you know, timeline and timing and opportunities, um, those factors also play into, and that's largely bureaucracy. And I think another factor in my opinion is just how capitalism works. Like it capitalism works for capitalists who just want to get richer and richer. So it's like how do we, uh, distribute the resources, right? Like say, uh, an employer, a capitalist, they employ people and they only want to pay you this much that they think is fair and they think they are fair, but the thing is, are they really fair?
Um, so I think that is a kind of like a big question there. Like for, take myself as an example, I think when I was negotiating, um, when I was, uh, dependent on a visa, I think I was worth, you know, say a hundred K, but when I went and negotiate, my employer would be, would be saying something like, well, I think whatever you are making, say 60 K was fair because 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and we sponsor your visa. Yay. So there were a lot of contributing factors that play into pay transparency and for someone like me, because my life is at stake, so I'm not going out and broadcast and say I wasn't being paid equitably, because what if they say, oh, you badmouth us, we are not going to sponsor your visa anymore.
AN:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
ZF:
So I think, you know, it's very nuanced when it comes to pay transparency on a business level.
ZF:
And another thing I, I think, you know, on a mindset level, um, in a capitalist society, we are operating on a scarcity mindset, not abundance.
AN:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
ZF:
So everyone wants our own share of things and for capitalists, right? Like we are humans, we want more, like everyone wants more and we are greedy and sometimes we donate. But for capitalist is to, um, maximize, is to maximize profits, is to maximize resources that they can gain from employing people
AN:
mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
ZF:
So by giving up pay transparency or for the lack of, they are losing that power of controlling whoever is working for them. So they, and they don't want to give that up. So if, if we are operating on a scarcity mindset, then we will be very protective, our resources
AN:
mm-hmm. <affirmative>
ZF:
and employers just have that advantage to do that because they have other resource and other information and they collaborate that. Right. Some people can say, oh, don't discuss your salary information, it's not gonna be good for you. One term I heard from a previous employer was internal inflation. I don't know if you heard of it.
AN:
I haven’t, but I like it. Keep going. Tell me more.
ZF:
Internal inflation is assuming you and I, we are coworkers, right? Yeah. We've both been working inside the company for a while and then we both make say, uh, 70 K a year and the employer was hiring or is hiring someone who's similar to our level, but then they want to pay this person because of inflation and other stuff, you know, cost of living. They're like, oh, we're willing to pay this person 80 K. Then if they, uh, disclose that information, then you and I, Anusha and Zhou we're gonna like, what the? Right? Like, I deserve 80 K as well. Yeah. So that's what they mean by internal inflation is it would cause, uh, turbulence internally mm-hmm. <affirmative> and uh, lift the pay level for that same job internally and they would end up paying 20 extra K mm-hmm. <affirmative> for you and I
AN:
mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
ZF:
So that's when they say internal inflation, then of course that is false, right? If you and I are worth a d K, yeah. Just pay us ad K totally like the, in the internal inflation. This term is just very, like when I heard this turn, I, I just like shivered. I was like, oh my god, that is so evil.
AN:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
ZF:
Um, so yeah. So I think if we operate on a mindset of scarcity, we want to hoard information and we don't want transparency, but if we are operating on, uh, abundance mindset, then yeah. Let everyone know then it is fair and equitable. And if you are worth a hundred K, then we are paying you a hundred K. Right? And, uh, after three years, if you get to this level, this is how much you're gonna make. So we have a goal and we know where we are going instead of just blindly following whoever is saying or whatever rumor your coworkers are going to share or just not discussing it at all because everyone is afraid of losing that resource.
AN:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
ZF:
So I think, you know, that's why I feel pay transparency is still such a huge issue in our society. Yeah. Um, it's the, it's the nature of, uh, capitalism, I think.
AN:
Yeah. No, I, I agree. I, I feel like the thing that it results in though is just, it's like a whole slew of mind games I feel like is what it happened, what happens and it doesn't result well for anybody. Like I recently saw a tweet where some hiring manager said, um, that they were bringing someone on and they had a budget for like one 30 k, it was like an engineering position, a senior level position. And um, the person that they made the offer to, they made like an 80 something K offer and that person accepted it and they were kind of gloating about the fact that basically they didn't pay them the additional 40 k, um, because they didn't ask. And I just feel like that whole, I don't know what you wanna call it, like situation is like really absurd and has to stop, or we're like underpaying people.
Cuz like now, you know, in conversations with my own network and people that I talk to, and I'm sure you've heard something similar, but people feel like the only way to make more money, especially as they gain more experience, is just to leave that company and go somewhere else, especially in the tech space. And that's why you'll see that the average time people spend in, in a tech like co company on average is like a couple years I think is what I've heard. Because people feel like that's the only way to continue progressing financially, um, with the skill sets that they're gaining, which is just an awful cycle. Um, yeah. But anyway,
ZF:
I understand that. I mean, negotiation itself is just a mind game. Hmm. It's, especially for women and people of color. Like if I were a white man in my mid thirties, I would just walk into the manager's office and say, I want this money. Give it to me. Right? Yeah. But I think for women and people of color, it takes so much mental strength to walk into that office and say, I would like 20 K more mm-hmm. <affirmative> and not even knowing if I am able to get it. Yeah. Um, so that itself is not equitable negotiation itself is just that itself to me is really unfair to many, many people. And if that's problematic negotiation, why don't we do our best to prevent that from happening by giving people what they should be making
AN:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Yeah, I absolutely agree. Um, and on that note I wanna ask you, I guess in 2023 I'm gonna ask you the same question. If there was one thing that you feel like, uh, we could change in the tech like space, what would it be? <laugh>
ZF:
Hmm. In 2023 in the tech space? Uh, yeah, like right now, because my profession is equity, diversity, and, and inclusion, I absolutely advocate for, you know, diversifying our team and make our workplace more equitable and inclusive. And I would say we should be doing that from the beginning. So we should make EDI, equity, diversity and inclusion, um, not as an afterthought, but it should be part of the strategic plan. Like we should include DEI in a company's strategic plan from the beginning. Say we are starting a new business, we are designing a product, or we are creating a service, then we should be thinking is our product or service serving people who are not white or who are not men? So that kind of equity lens should be in, in, uh, implemented from the beginning and like, say a lot of, um, you know, tech companies, we rely heavily on data.
ZF:
So where do you get your data? Is your data representative of the people of color or people from other rep underrepresented communities mm-hmm. <affirmative> so that the product and the service you create is, um, accessible and usable for all. So like really, I think if one thing that you, you know, we can aspire to see in the tech space, one big change is DEI should be in the DNA of a new company, not as an afterthought. And, uh, and of course, you know, maybe from the beginning it was just one person or two people team. But then as we grow when we hire, we should be very intentionally hiring people from different backgrounds and, um, have different kind of, uh, perspectives and mindsets and ways of thinking, uh, in the space as well, instead of always hiring someone who look like just us. Um, so I know this is not easy, um, but I would love for, um, you know, tech startups and new companies and new teams to start thinking about that and make d ai a priority in their work.
AN:
Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think this is more prevalent than ever because of our huge, um, influx of just AI information and with ChatGPT being on the market, there's a lot of conversation. Um, and we've had ongoing conversations about ai, but I think especially this year, more than ever, it's become something that is not this, uh, far-fetched idea. And in fact, there are large, uh, big tech companies like rushing to put AI products on the market and, um, you know, I, I know that there's a lot of conversation about y what they're doing as far as due diligence goes and what kinds of data sets we're feeding these ai uh, products before we're even putting them on the market and how we're testing them. So I appreciate you bringing that up because I do think it's a, it's a very, very big, um, topic that unfortunately I don't see being a larger part of that conversation,
ZF:
So. Yeah. Yeah. Well it's 2023, we cant aspire
AN:
<laugh>. Yeah, exactly. Um, well Zhou, I know we're getting close to the end of our segment, um, and I'm sure that you have some really great advice to leave us with. So I wanna ask you, is there, uh, any piece of advice or call to action that you have maybe more specifically for, um, immigrants who are looking to break into tech or maybe immigrants who are in the tech space right now, but are struggling with like immigration issues like you did? I know that you do a lot of really good work around this, so I would love to hear from you and I'm sure our listeners would too.
ZF:
Yeah. Um, I'm not sure if it's wise, but I think it is something I learned along the way. I think one thing we already mentioned is, uh, you are not alone, right? Like, oftentimes we feel that we are alone because our experience as immigrants are very unique. Like every immigrant's immigration story is different. So because of that, at times will feel like no one is gonna understand me. Um, maybe not in its entity, but I think people are genuinely kind and, uh, empathetic sometimes and we should really believe that we are not alone and, uh, look for our community and find support. So that's one. And for folks who want to break into tech or start their own journey as a startup or business, um, I want to say one is confidence and two is clarity. Um, so confidence is, um, especially for women and people of color, uh, we have that doubt on ourselves, like, can I do it?
Um, we like, deep down, we know we can do it, but we have that question. So I mentioned confidence is we have to tell ourselves that you got this and you can do it. And the moment you register for the L L C or for that company, you are already on your way to success. And it doesn't mean that it's gonna be easy, it's gonna be hard, but at the same time, it's gonna be really challenging, it's gonna be fun, and you're gonna learn a lot along the way. So have that confidence in yourself and knowing that you will be able to go through it and kind of make a thing for yourself. And I think that's really important. And clarity means, um, knowing what you want to do and what advantage you have and what this advantage you have. So meaning assess your situation.
Like, for example, some people want to have their own good adventure or business, but the reality doesn't allow them to do so yet. And that's okay. Like it's hard. But I think with step patience in yourself and know when the time is right, you will be able to do it. And also, you know, make a plan. Clarity also means, uh, you know, what's gonna happen next, not exactly, but just on a high level, have a plan on your mind. You know, I'm gonna do this today, I'm gonna do this next week, I'm gonna send that email or I'm gonna follow up with that person.
AN:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
ZF:
So I think having clarity is also important when it comes to breaking into a new space or taking on a new business adventure.
AN:
That's awesome. Well, that's really, really great advice. Um, thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom, Zhou. Um, I really appreciated talking to you. I know that our listeners are gonna be super excited to hear from you. Um, and I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. And I also wanna just a huge shout out to our incredible podcast team, um, whose dedication makes all of these, um, sharing all these amazing stories possible. So, Cobre Dee, Katie, Jana, Max, and Isabel, thank you all so much. And to our listeners, thank you as always for tuning in. Your support means so much, and we will catch you again really soon on our next episode.
ZF:
Thank you all so very much. I really, really appreciate it.
Outro:
PDXWIT is a 501C3 nonprofit. We're building a better tech industry by creating access, dismantling inequities and feeling belonging. Find out more about us at www.PDXWIT.org. Like this podcast? Subscribe and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Wanna give us feedback? Contact us podcast@pxwit.org to help us improve and ensure you learn and grow from the stories you hear on humanizing tech.