Anna Madill: Inclusive Work Culture

On this episode of Humanizing Tech, we’re joined by Anna Madill. Anna is the Founder and CEO of Avenue, a digital marketing agency that amplifies the impact of growth-minded and purpose-driven companies through results-led digital marketing.

Anna shares how she boosts her confidence with public speaking, the challenges of running a company as a woman of color, and what goes into becoming a Certified B Corporation. We also took some time to reflect how we’re each acknowledging Asian American Heritage month.

Tune in to learn about cultivating workplace culture in the startup phases and building an environment of safety and trust. From how she balances her passion for business and for being a mom, her self-care favorites, and where she focuses her volunteering efforts, Anna is a business owner we can all learn a lot from.

Transcript

Introduction: 

Welcome to humanizing tech. We interview people to dig below the surface of their achievements and challenges showcasing the story behind the story. We believe that focusing on the person and humanizing their lived experiences will help us shape the future of tech. 

Humanizing tech is brought to you by Kiva. Kiva is an international nonprofit working to expand financial access to help underserved communities thrive. 100% of every dollar you lend on Kiva goes to funding loans. By lending as little as $25 you can be part of the solution and make a real difference in someone's life. More than 80% of the borrowers Kiva serves around the world are women. Learn more at kiva.org.

Anusha Neelam: Hi, everyone.

So excited to be here, thank you for joining us for this live episode.

Before we get started, we want to acknowledge the ground we're on, so wherever we're tuning in from, PDXWIT has events all over Portland, Oregon, and beyond and we want to acknowledge the history of the area and work towards decolonization of the tech industry.

Portland rests on the Multnomah, Kathlamet, Clackamas, Chinook, Tualatin, Kalapuya, Molalla, and many other tribes who made their homes along the Columbia River. So please join us in a moment of acknowledgment for the land we're all on. If you would like to learn more about PDXWIT's action related to land acknowledgment, please visit our website. We’ll add a link in the show notes as well. 

Now, welcome to a very special episode of Humanizing Tech.

Jesselle Hedman: Thank you so much. I'm Jesselle, she/her, I'm a Portland native working as an HR consultant, and I'm super excited to be here today with Anusha, this is our first episode we're hosting live together. So very happy to be here doing that.

AN: I'm Anusha Neelam, she/her for me as well. Jesselle cohosted our first live episode with our guest Rihana Mungun a couple months ago, which I highly recommend listening to by the way, if you haven't already. But for those of you who are newer to this format, what this means is that we get to involve the audience a little bit today. So if you're tuning in live and would like to ask our guest a question, please use the QA and we'll have about 10 minutes at the end when Jesselle and I will read your questions.

JH: Those of you not familiar, PDXWIT is a nonprofit organization based in Portland, Oregon, with the goal of building a better tech industry. We advance this goal by creating access,  dismantling inequity and feeling belonging within the industry. We have events, a mentor program, scholarship fund, a job board with a bunch of other initiatives listed. You can check this all out at pdxwit.org. I was lucky enough to be a guest on the podcast, now honestly about two years ago, when it was hosted by Kimberly and Dawn, and that's how I got into this. Anusha, how did you get into PDXWIT?

AN: Yeah, so my journey, it's taken a couple years. I've been involved in the community for a couple years, and I love the community that PDXWIT has brought into my life. My first experience with PDXWIT was during my first year working as a professional in the tech industry.

So some of my coworkers convinced me to go to a happy hour event, and when I got there, I was being the introvert that I was, I was very, very nervous. But by the end of it, it was just like magic. I felt I found my people, and since then I've gained a lot from the resources that PDXWIT provides, so I found a mentor through the mentorship program, I was a previous scholarship recipient, and so now I get to cohost this awesome podcast and help share some incredible stories. So I'm just super thankful for it all.

JH: Love that. I want to also mention, happy Asian American Heritage Month, everyone. Anusha, are you doing anything special in honor of this month to celebrate?

AN: Yes. I identify as Asian American, so this month is very close to my heart. Although I believe we should be celebrating diversity and culture all year long. But as we pay special tribute to the AAPI community this month, I will be spending some extra time reflecting on some of my own lived experiences and how that's helped shape me. So for me that's asking my parents all of the questions, because that's where my roots are really tied. So doing a lot of that, doing a lot of journaling and reflecting, but I also love watching content that creators from different backgrounds produce. So in light of that little pop culture reference here, but one of my favorite Asian American writers and producers is Mindy Kaling, so I'm going to be streaming some of my favorites by her. I just think it's amazing to be able to watch content where you're able to see better representation, and be able to see people who look like you, and share in those stories that you also connect to. So it's just really special to me to be able to watch that sort of content. So I'll be doing that throughout this month. But what about you, Jesselle? Do you have any special plans to celebrate this month?

JH: Yeah, that's a great question. I love the perspective that you mentioned in terms of we really should be celebrating all different cultures and heritages across all the months of the year. But for me it's educating myself through experiencing the art and kind of creative energy shared by the AAPI community, I found so often that many folks who shared a creative energy in this space do so with a strong sense of community and family at the root of their motivation.

You mentioned reaching out and talking to your family this month, and asking questions.

And I think that comes across in the art that's produced. Whether that be jewelry, or videos, or stand-up comedy, Hassan Minaj is probably one of my favorites that comes to mind. Sharing stories and hearing about lived experiences of my friends and associates in this space, as well as seeking out new information, things that I don't know and educating myself to really support and uplift the communities from a position I occupy, that we're celebrating this month is definitely something I can contribute to.

AN: Oooh, yes. Hassan Minaj, another one of my absolute favorites. And for those of you who are interested I highly recommend checking out Homecoming King. It’s on Netflix and it gives you all the feels. So I highly recommend it.

JH: Great recommendation. I definitely have to second that. Well, today we're really thrilled to learn about entrepreneurship and inclusive work culture from the perspective of our wonderful guest, Anna Madill.

AN: Anna Madill, who uses she/her pronouns, is the founder and CEO of Avenue, a digital marketing agency that amplifies the impact growth minded and push-driven companies have in the world through results led digital marketing. She was also recognized on the Portland Business Journal's 40 under 40 award list for 2017. Woo! A lot of accomplishments right there.

Welcome Anna.

Anna Madill:: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here, and be having this conversation.

JH: We're so excited to have you. Anna, I asked Anusha, but I want to ask you as well, are you doing anything special to celebrate AAPI month and the heritage associated?

AM: Yes. So I love that question, and my answer is actually similar to Anusha's. I identify as Asian American, my perspective is a little bit different, I'm adopted, so I'm a Korean American, and technically immigrated and was pulled from my roots originally from Korea, arrived in the United States and I think my lived experience is that I've been reflecting on more so I would say over the last five years or so, has been around that sort of who am I, and realizing that as I was growing up in different sorts of environments, experiences, communities, oftentimes I did not have many people who looked like me or if there were, who had the same sort of background of being adopted.

And feeling like you sort of fit in in one side of the spectrum, and also feeling like you don't really fit in on the other side. And kind of how that has played out in my life to date. So a lot of reflection for me.

The other couple of things I'm doing to celebrate are working -- buying and frequenting businesses that are AAPI-owned or led. So my son's first birthday is coming up here in about a week and a half, and we'll be getting a cake from Cake Nouveau, two amazing women who run that business, and so super excited to be getting one of those cakes and celebrating his birthday. The final piece is thinking about other literature that I've read or want to revisit, one of the books that has spoken to me over the last couple years is a book called All You Can Ever Know by Nicole Chung is a Korean adoptee raised in Oregon and has a lot of similar lived experiences, different for sure, but some parallels that were really helpful for me to draw from.

JH: Awesome. Such a cool variety of things. And definitely something I can identify with. I was adopted as well.So there's a lot of representation in this space. I love that. Super excited to have this conversation. But yeah, I'd love for you to continue to tell us a little bit more about your background.

AM: Yeah. It's so funny, because when I get that question, it's -- I can't think of anything in my background that actually would have led me to where I am today. Other than sort of the work ethic and the working hard and sticking to commitments. But my background, I think it's been a really big journey, and I think maybe if there's anything from a storytelling perspective of sharing, I feel like I have grown and changed so much over the course of my childhood to early young adulthood, to early career, to now sort of mid-career, however you want to look at that.

And a lot of it was, I think some confusion as to who I am, and where do I fit in when I was growing up as young, a toddler, child, young adult, and early years where -- there's a certain age where I think myself personally did not realize that I looked any different than other kids in my class, or friends on the street, in the neighborhood. But there did come a turning point where I did start noticing those disparities and realizing that I did not look like the majority of my friends.

And that oftentimes I wouldn't say a lack, but there wasn't a lot of understanding around the differences that I brought to the mix. And that over the course of my childhood, a lot of the sort of maybe at this point we might classify them as racist comments, or actions that were not maybe intentional, but things that became part of my lived experience of, this is normal, this is how I'm viewed, and it wasn't really until I would say sort of young adulthood, maybe college to early career that I feel like I actually really started to find who I was and where I could make a mark in the world.

And a lot of my early career as an Asian or adopted Korean person in growing up in Seattle, Washington, so while Seattle itself is a fairly diverse city, we weren't living in a very diverse neighborhood. And so that I think played into a lot of myself-identity that I -- my self-identity I experienced as I grew up. Also the introvert sort of personality, as we're getting into the -- I think this will hopefully come full circle, but thinking about -- I've become the owner, founder, CEO of Avenue and of who I was as a little girl -- are two separate people. Shy, introverted, oftentimes definitely not the first person to speak up. I often share this story with my team and others, is public speaking, middle, high school, college, not something that I ever excelled at. And in fact really shied away from.

And it wasn't until college where I almost failed the one-on-one speech that was required, didn't eventually, but it was one of those classes that was a turning point that this is something that for whatever reason, I am afraid to put myself out there. Not confident in who I am, and that was a key turning point for me.

The other piece is the concept of assimilation. So I think as being an Asian American Korean adopted woman, there's a lot of not really feeling like I fit in anywhere with the Korean oration community, I didn't always feel like I fit in there. On the other side of the coin, the mostly Caucasian or white community that I was also part of, I didn't feel I fit in there.

So there was a lot of assimilation that would happen as a result of that, and so I think over time as a child I became a master assimilator in situations so that I didn't stick out and felt like I fit in.

JH: Absolutely. I would love to know, within that, sounds like you've overcome a lot of that and kind of instead chosen to lean in to learning about that now. I'd love to know, where do you think you found that confidence in your journey?

AM: So there’s another piece of me that is competitive and driven, so whether it was sport games or sports, I've always had a fire or competitive drive. But there were other pieces I think from a confidence perspective certainly held me back in childhood. But the drive and the sort of competitive nature was really the fire that I had. So as I progressed, and I'll just fast forward into present day sort of early career, that drive to be “successful,” so having a career, being able to move up the career ladder, was really important to me. And I will come back to this story about the public speaking, so I did realize eventually, probably in year one or two of my career in the digital marketing industry, and just realized that unless I can become a confident public speaker or just presenter for whether it's clients or outward facing in the community, or even internally with peers, it's going to be very difficult in the work environments I'm in to be successful or move on. And whether that's good or bad, whether it's devaluing certain traits and valuing other traits more highly, different conversation, but at that point I realized I was going to have to basically bite the bullet and commit to getting better at that.

So as a -- there was turning point where at one of the agencies I was at, we were kicking off a lunch and learn series, and my supervisor at the time asked if there were any volunteers to lead and host the first lunch and learn, which was going to be a hosted presentation at our office. So I raised my hand and said, I would love to do that, even though deep down inside I did not want to do that whatsoever. But I worked really hard on preparing and getting ready for that, and it went off really well. And so that was the first key point where I actually built my confidence in my ability to take on something that was really scary for me.

And from there I think it was a little bit of that imposter syndrome, but it's taking on these activities or roles that I didn't really want to do, and did not come naturally to me, and then just that sort of fake it until you make it type of mentality of, I can do this, and more of the, I believe myself, I can do this. Even though I don’t feel like I have the natural confidence or skill set.

And over time, just building that muscle.

AN: I love that message. And I relate to it so much, because I feel I had a similar struggle growing up in a community, I grew up in a suburb called Beaverton, so it's a little outside Portland and it was predominantly white growing up and going to school. I was kind of facing a lot of microaggressions from a lot of my peers, so I think that being an introverted shy kid it was -- it only made that worse for me. So during middle school, high school, even early college, and it's always been a struggle for me in maintaining my authenticity, and wanting to not change particular parts of myself, but at the same time I do have that ambitious side of me that wants to do all of these things.

So similarly to you, I did have to -- I did have that moment, I have to bite the bullet if I want my voice to be heard. I think at the time a couple years ago I signed up for Toastmasters and started with this group I felt comfortable with, and started opening up and it really did help a lot.

So I appreciate you sharing your story, because I definitely resonate with that.

AD: Thank you. Yeah. I really resonate with what you just said as well.

AN: Thank you for sharing a little bit about your background. And I know you're a proud supporter of BIPOC and AAPI entrepreneurs, as you mentioned earlier. Were there any challenges that you faced in running your company as a woman of color?

AM: Yes. And I think this goes back to even just being in the workforce, not just having Avenue.

But I can definitely remember many instances, and mostly I would say on the client-facing side where there was just sort of an initial assumption that I looked younger or less qualified or less of an expert in the field. And so I'm in the digital marketing field, and more specifically when I started my career in digital marketing it was SEOs, Search Engine Optimization, paid advertising, social media was just ramping up at that point. And in the SEO world, there were not a lot of women, in the very early beginning of that industry. And even fast forward to when I joined, definitely still not a lot of women, but also not a lot of women of color. So in terms of who I think clients or other businesses were used to working with with digital marketing, it was not necessarily someone who looked like me.

So I think that was something I had noticed in interactions over the course of my entire career.

And certainly leading up to starting Avenue, I still have more of a, I would say youthful look about me, so I don't look like I've had a decade plus of experience in the industry, and I think that worked against me in some instances, because there's just a lack of trust and capability.

JH: Definitely. An important thing to bring up in terms of entrepreneurship, right? That will forever be something that impacted you, that you can speak to, right? And speak to the value of making sure that we're being inclusive in those spaces. So other people don't have those experiences, right? And that actually leads me to wanting to ask a little bit more about Avenue. So you are the CEO of a digital marketing agency, and I have some very specific questions for you. But tell me how do we get started there? And how did that come to fruition, I suppose is a good way to say that.

AM: So if you had asked me six years ago, Avenue just crossed our fifth anniversary, and asked if I would have started a business I probably would have said no. There's no entrepreneurial bone in my family, or my adopted family, I should say. So I certainly wasn't a learned trait.

But what I did pick up along the way, the work ethic, but also the learnings earlier on in my career, I was at a small start-up agency, I was basically employee number two and wore a lot of different hats. Everything from learning digital marketing from the ground up, to operations, to finance, to sales, to everything across the board. And that sort of learning and that experience gave me some of the skills I probably wouldn't have learned if I had gone straight into a larger agency or some other brand or corporation. That still wasn't enough for me to say, hey, I know I'm going to be an entrepreneur in five years from now, so definitely wasn't just that. But I think that was some learned experience that was helpful. It really came down to, when I was -- probably, just over five years ago, thinking about what do I want to be doing for the next, whether it's 10, 20, 30 years, there's a nice long runway of work still ahead of me, and what do I really want to be doing and what's going to make me happy when I get up in the morning?

And it really came down to purpose, and alignment with not just the clients I'm working with, but team members, partners, all of those sorts of things.

And realizing I just hadn't found that yet in any company. Great things about all the companies I've been at, certainly strengths and weaknesses, but it really came down to, what do I want to be doing for the rest of my work life? And at that point there was an opportunity to partner with a really good friend of mine who became my first client, and as we were talking about how could we work together in the future, aka now, the concept of Avenue came to fruition, and was able to, within a matter of 48 hours essentially, this was a split-second -- I wouldn't say a split-second decision, but it happened quickly, once I set my mind to something, can really make it happen.

I had been thinking about what that sort of ideal scenario would look like for probably a few months, but it was sort of the timing meets opportunity, meets preparation that enabled me to start Avenue.

And I guess I will touch on, I'm sure we'll get there, but leading us up into our B Corp situation, and what we've done around culture, team, clients, and values alignment, that was a key piece of as I have an opportunity to build something literally from the ground up, how do I want to design it from day one.

JH: Absolutely. I am relatively familiar with B Corp certification, I know that that's just because I'm lucky to have been exposed to  businesses that are in those spaces. So would you share with our listeners what a B Corp certification is, and why you would want to do such a thing?

When you are running a business. 

AM: So it's a big question, but in short, I'll start with what a B corp is. A certified B corporation is a business who's committed to triple-bottom line, which is what we call people, planet, profit.

It needs to be a profitable business to be able to continue to put out good work into the world.

But it's also focused on taking care of people and the planet. And the B lab certification is the highest level of verification a business can go through to meet these transparency business practices, and environmental practices, as parts of pillars of their business. And it is a long process typically for a business to go through that. It is different than sort of the benefit company certification, so it's a much more in-depth certification process, and it's a process that is renewed every three years. So once you certify, you still have to recertify every three years and show that you're continuing those practices, or better yet, we really at Avenue, I look at it as a model for us to continue to improve our impact and how we do business, so our score right now, we hope to as we're recertifying, improve that score so we've added in new practices, we've continued to take better care of our employees, ways we can impact the environment and other things like that.

There's some companies that will probably recognize as B corps, so in our community New Seasons, Patagonia has a store here, but there are many, so depends on what businesses you frequent. Some of the B corps we personally, I know I shop from, Green Drop Garage is a B corp that helps take care of my sure, make sure it's functioning, oil changes, that sort of thing.

Nossa Familia Coffee, is a coffee roaster here in Portland, so any industry there's probably a B corp. Portland has one of the vibrant B corp communities, and I think that's the nature of maybe who we are, as a community. But also that we've built a really nice culture around doing good with business.

JH: Absolutely. And to get there you have to share a lot of in-depth information about, and how developed, and have a really strong methodology and mission. Am I correct when I say that?

So you have to be really demonstrating your support in these three main categories year after year. I love that.

AM: Yeah it is -- there's a lot of documentation that goes along with it too. It's not just a simple survey. The other piece is the certification is different, there's probably, there's hundreds if not a thousands different variations for each different industry or business type. So depending on how you answer some of the earlier questions will dictate the questions you get in the future. That's how an agency like Avenue has one certification that's modeled toward our type of business versus a grocery store like New Seasons where they have hundreds of thousands of suppliers, it's a different business model.

AN: Thanks for sharing. I was not as educated on what B corp is, so I feel learned a lot just now.

Taking a look at Avenue's website, it's pretty clear that your company is very committed to prioritizing work culture. So I would love to hear as a CEO of Avenue, how you go about setting that tone and what are the actions that you're taking to make sure that is a healthy work environment for all of your employees?

AM: Mhmm. Really comes down to transparency and communication with the team. So it's one thing to have a policy in place in a handbook or tucked away somewhere that never gets read, and something that is talked about and actually reinforced. So for us, there's so many different components I can think about, I guess the core theme that we think about is that of trust and communication. So as much as it's easy to say, I trust my team member, and I feel safe and able to be vulnerable where I'm struggling, or where I need help, or anything, or I'm having a tough day, it's actually a lot more difficult I've found to create that environment, because there are a lot of preset lenses that people are carrying, how to show up, what's appropriate and how to show up in a workplace. So it really comes down to first building an environment of safety and trust, so we've done this in a lot of different ways. Our strategic plan, quarterly retreats, other times connecting as a team to use tools, one of them is nonviolent communication, which may or may not be familiar with - to boil it down, a lot about feelings and needs and being able to be comfortable about talking about, here's how I'm feeling, here's what I need, and perhaps making a positive request.

But actually boiling down the feeling can be really scary in a work environment, especially when you feel like you might be struggling or not keeping up. But as we've been having these, and myself as the CEO sharing where I'm struggling too, has opened up over time I think a safer space for everyone to share and realize that when we actually share where we're struggling we all really care about each other and we have a really thoughtful and intentional team that everyone wants to and pitches in immediately to support that team member who might be struggling. Especially during the pandemic, there's been some tough times with quarantine.

JH: Absolutely. I'm sure that as an HR person, I'm sure that translates into all of the performance management, and the level of inclusion that folks feel being part of Avenue. So I think that many would probably report that work for you that they feel really trusted to do their best work and they can bring their whole selves there. I love that. That being said, you made this transition into being a CEO, and I would love to hear about if you had the opportunity or experience to have any mentors that urged you to maybe get out a little bit outside of your comfort zone in terms of exploring entrepreneurship, and what that may have looked like for you.

AM: Hmm. Yeah, so in terms of mentors, right now I'll say that I have an amazing advisory board for Avenue, and mentors, so I have some amazing -- Sue Embree, Sheila Murty, Karin Holsinger, Kerry McClenahan, Ryan Buchanan all sort of help us as both mentors and advisors for me and for Avenue. So they specifically have been really instrumental in the last couple of years or year in terms of really helping me in this stage of where I am and where Avenue is. Before that, it's been sort of hit or miss in terms of real mentors. And it depends on how you define that. If it's a defined relationship, where you're meeting on a monthly or biweekly, bimonthly cadence or something like that, or if it's more of a connection point.

So there's certainly been a bunch of people who have been those connection points. I'll actually even point to my husband who is also another entrepreneur, so he's been separate completely separate business, but together he's actually provided a great sort of mentorship sounding  board relationship as well in that capacity. So I will give a shout out to Cameron on that.

JH: Love that. Love that. Thank you. That's really exciting. And I think one of the things that is so exciting also about being a B corp, I'd love to hear from you in terms of how you think about utilizing the individual contributors that work within your organization, and their perspectives.

And considering those in the larger decision making spaces. I'd love to maybe hear about how you try to foster a sense of inclusion in terms of making sure that everybody across the company is involved. Because you've -- I believe you've grown a bit in the past few years as well. Am I correct when I say that?

AM: Yeah. We've just added a new team member. We're still a pretty small team. So I think we do have the benefit of being rather number that be we are interacting with each other pretty regularly on a day-to-day basis. But in terms of fostering inclusion, I think I've learned a lot and the team tons teach me better ways to make them feel included. But part of it is just asking questions and inquiry and being curious. And really meaning that. So when you're asking about maybe how they're doing, or how is a project going, or tell me more about that, really making sure that they're able to be seen and heard in how they are in that moment or how they're doing in that moment. And just that sense of feeling seen and heard is inclusive in that sense, so there's that sort of day-to-day interaction piece. In terms of how the team members influence Avenue's operations, our work, all of that, we actually do include the entire team in our strategic planning annual and quarterly, so together as a team a facilitated planning session on a quarterly basis where we are talking about the priorities for the company, and setting sort of our annual rock or goals and our quarterly rocks, if you will, so also goals for what we're accomplishing as a team together. So those are all decisions that are made as a team.

AN: I love that because I know for me, when I have worked at different organizations in the past and they've had kind of a policy on including everybody in the organization, in the decisions they're making and keeping everybody in the loop, like all hands meetings, things like that, where you're in the know of the direction of the organization that usual working for, it just makes you feel special, it makes you feel like you're part of something. So I'm sure your employees feel that way with these sorts of initiatives that you've just shared with us.

AM: Thank you.

AN: I want to pivot a little bit, I know in addition to being a rock star CEO, you're also a mother. So how do you balance your passion for your work as well as being a mom?

AM: With a lot of support from family. I could not do it without the tribe and the family that we have in terms of support. So I am just in awe of parents, mothers, single mothers, single dads, single parents who are doing this. It's a tough job, and until you become a parent you don't realize how difficult it is. But for me, I actually had a huge question mark about that before I gave birth to Ian. I didn't know. I've heard in talking with friends, colleagues that it can shift how you feel about work once you have a child. So I had a huge question mark around, how would I feel after Ian came into the world? And at an interesting time too, in the middle of a pandemic and not really able to see any people including team members, but at the end of the day I think it has actually helped enrich my work experience. I feel like there's not just, I feel like I am more of a whole person with family and with Ian. And that work and Avenue is extremely important, but it's no longer the only thing that defines who I am. So it's actually balance that has helped me bring more creativity, ideas, and energy when the timing is right for Avenue.

And I think it has also helped because earlier in my career I could probably work, work, work and keep working, and now that's just not possible. And it's not sustainable for team members.

So I don't wish that on anyone, either at Avenue or anywhere else. And so I think modeling some of the stepping back, taking a break, and being able to have some boundaries around where work and especially during the pandemic where we're online so much of the day, has actually been helpful in building continuing to build a healthy culture and work environment for everyone to thrive in.

JH: Absolutely. I love that perspective. But you have to be intentional about it. That's what I'm hearing, right? You were putting a lot of intention and thought into ensuring that that's your reality.

AD: Yes.

JH: Love that. Thank you so much. This has been such a fantastic conversation. I think we are coming toward the end of all of the questions Anusha and I have, so the big moment has arrived that we'd like to open up the Q&A from the audience. If anybody has any questions for Anna, in terms of anything that's been shared or anything that maybe we haven't touched on that you're interested in, please feel free to share them now. Ooh here’s a good question from Francine King, what has been your biggest learning or surprise this year?

To -- we'll go with Anna first.

AD: I think learning from me and being that sort of ambitious competitive go, go, go, really wanting to move Avenue forward a lot of the time has been that especially in the last year they've had this pandemic and this different environment that everyone is navigating, is that slowing down right now is actually in our best interest as a company, and for the team, and also for myself. So our annual theme for this year at Avenue is go slow to go fast. So we've had an influx of business inquiries, and have actually had to push those out two to three months, so while it would be possible potentially to say, sure, let's get started and push, we're actually slowing down right now in the sort of understanding that making sure the team is taken care of, and especially, I don't know if any of you read "The New York Times" article about languishing, just that space between depression and sort of happiness, and burnout so to speak, is just sort of this sense that a lot of us have had at some point, a lot of the time over the course of the pandemic. And that's taken a toll. And my goal is for Avenue to be a sustainable place where people really want to work for a long period of time, and it's sustainable for them as well as for our clients and for Avenue as a company. And by pushing people too hard, something is going to break at some point. So my biggest learning is for us right now anyway, slowing down right now is going to enable us to go faster later this year and next.

AN: Yeah I love that. I'm going to piggyback on that a little bit. I feel that's been a good chunk of what I've been learning this last year, to be more mindful in the things I get involved in, and where I spend my time. And so I'm really, I've really learned who my core group, my support system has been and just making sure that I'm present when I'm spending time with these people that give me so much during these more difficult kind of up and down times in life.

That's been a really big thing. And also just, I tend to have a lot of passions, so figuring out where I want to spend that time and how I want to spend that time in a way that's going to be beneficial to me and the communities that I'm a part of has been one of my biggest lessons.

JH: I love that. Actually, fades well into another question that we received, from the audience, which comes from Elizabeth asking, how does Anna take care of herself while also taking care of her employees? We've heard a lot about the things you try to do for your employees and the inclusion and trust you facilitate there. But what about yourself? And has that been a challenge during the pandemic. 

AD: Yeah. It's definitely been a challenge over the course of the pandemic. It's been sort of a work in progress. I think for me, for self-care part of that is actually exercise and maybe a little bit -- I love mindfulness as well. For me a lot of the mindfulness comes from running. So my husband and I actually run and we've been, since the pandemic started it gave us more flexibility, even before Ian arrived, to get out into forest park and into nature and be active and run. So we have really taken to that over the last year. And recently trained for a marathon, which is crazy. I don't know if that sounds like self-care, but it's for me when being out in nature and locked in that activity, exercise of moments of clarity and creativity for Avenue, so it's actually allowed me to break out with ideas and solutions to some of the challenges we're facing. It has been really difficult, some of the typical self-care things I was doing in the past, like massages, those sorts of things, completely not available during the pandemic. So those things been more challenging. So it's looking inward in the things you can do at home. And a lot of that unplugging. My husband will be very happy that that's a key piece of what we've been focusing on. So breaking up with our phone, and trying to read more. We've been reading, less screen time, getting out in nature I guess is my response.

JH: Love that. I have gotten my screen time down almost like 2½ hours in the last year. So I've been on the same journey. And that's on my phone, that's a lot of time. So that's something to be proud of for sure. I love that.

AN: My iPhone reminds me the percentage of time I spend on just my phone, and it surprised me, but that does definitely affect how I interact and how much time I spend on my phone. So it's been kind of a nice thing to have for sure. It looks like we've got another question here from Sharon. Can you talk about your volunteer work and how you decide who to volunteer with?

AD: Yeah. Hi, Sharon, thank you for this question. Such a good one. For me, for volunteer work for me personally, it comes down to passion and alignment. And the values of the actual organization and the work that's being done. So for example, one of the nonprofits I support and have supported for probably eight plus, almost nine plus years is Smart Reading. So Start Making a Reader Today Smart Reading. That organization has really spoken to me because of how big a role reading played in my early childhood sort of escapism into books, and realizing how reading gave me a leg up in my education and future. Young adults in education, and work life, and so the reading component has been something that really aligned with personal values as well as some of the work SMART is doing around diversity, equity, and inclusion and antiracism. So having all of those components in an organization, that's one of the ways in which I decide where to spend my time with an organization. And then looking at need too, so organizations that have a lot of need for volunteers, support, or if it's volunteer time in a different capacity, or fund-raising. So over the last couple years immigration has floated to the top, and certainly many others. But it's a kind of need and personal alignment and values.

JH: Thank you, I really appreciate that. 

AN: So kind of wanting to circle back to the mentorship topic that we discussed earlier. One of the things that I had heard somebody talk about in a conference before is the difference between a mentor and an advocate. So like a mentor being somebody that you rely on for advice, or somebody that you go to for feedback, things like that. But then an advocate being the person that really goes to bat fo you, like someone who is going to speak up, like when they know of opportunities that you would be good for, and really kind of vouching for you in those ways. How do you feel like women and people of color can be advocates for each other, especially in the tech space?

AM: Yeah. I think the advocate piece is huge. I think it is that sort of activation and the support that oftentimes is the difference maker between someone who always grew up with that sort of support, and someone who did not have that support, and doesn't know how to ask for it, or how to elevate themselves in a way to succeed, or have different opportunities available to themselves. I just think it's really important to take action or volunteer wherever you feel you can have an impact. I think impact also would be another way that I also choose who to volunteer with. Is the organization having an impact? But impact as a person, if you know someone in your network or on your team, or in your company, and you feel like you have something to offer that could provide them with a leg up, I think you should absolutely take the initiative to do that.

And that's where I think with the mentorship piece, it's usually more of, oftentimes the mentee asks for guidance or advice, and not always, but it's oftentimes mentee driven.

And if that's someone that's as comfortable for some folks, it can be difficult to really advocate for yourself with someone you look up to and feel you have more authority than you might.

So an advocate I think can play a role and still be a mentor but really help push and actually give to help support people to find opportunities and succeed.

AN: Yeah, I love that. Thank you for sharing your insight. I really wanted to get your perspective, because I know for me I would not necessarily be in the places that I am if I did not have certain advocates in my life that were pushing for me to get certain opportunities. So I think it's just important for our listeners and for everybody here to hear that and just keep that in mind.

JH: Absolutely. I could not agree more. And I think impact is such a good way to look at it. That's how I make I try to make my decisions, can I have the biggest impact here, and how can that serve as many people as possible? Ah. Well, this has been so lovely. Wonderful. It looks like we've come toward the end of our time here. I think we'll wrap up our Q and A. Thank you to those that have participated.

AN: And thank you so much, Anna, for being here. It's been amazing to hear your journey and your stories and your insight. Are there any last words that you would like to share with our listeners?

AM: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a really fun conversation. I appreciate just the space to share and open up in sort of a less conventional format or topic than might otherwise be on a podcast. I think the theme that I’ve been thinking about this year is how to be a better business, or a better team member, or a better leader, or community member. So I think that if anything I'm just thinking we've been through crazy times as a community and a country, and how can we either be a better business, so for Avenue that's being a certified B corp, and anyone who is interested can take sort of a 30-minute B impact assessment at Bimpactassessment.com, to see where their organization sit was that. It's not the full certification, but it's a quick snapshot, how to be a better business. And thinking about ways to elevate and I think Anusha to your point, be an advocate for AAPI and BIPOC voices and professionals in the community. And I think there was one other thing. Just show appreciation.

One of the things I've been doing at Avenue is we open up our daily huddles with gratitude.

And just bringing a little bit more appreciation, whether it's the sunshine outside, or something a team member did for you, or showed up for you in a certain way. Appreciation. That's been really important.

JH: Love that. Thank you so much for sharing. This has been so lovely. And for those that are listening live, thank you so much for being here. For those that are listening in the podcast version, thank you so much for coming in and listening. We've had such a wonderful time chatting with you, Anna. Thank you so much Anusha for cohosting with me, this has been so fun. And again, Anna, thank you so much for sharing about your journey, about your organization, about your intention, and about yourself. It's been so exciting to get to know more about you today. So thank you. This live experience of course is so much fun. Thank you audience for being here with us. Max Ds on no our sound engineer will edit up, with the help of Katie Lenoard, Jana Hodgins will be working on the transcript and we'll get it online too, and a big thank you to PDXWIT for helping us build a better tech industry. Thanks so much everyone for being here.

AN: Thanks, everybody.

Outro: PDXWIT is a 501 C3 nonprofit with the purpose of encouraging women non-binary and underrepresented people to join tech and supporting and empowering them so they stay in tech. Find out more about us at www.pdxwit.org. Like this podcast? subscribe! and like us on your favorite podcast platform. Want to give us feedback, contact us at podcast@pdxwit.org to help us improve and ensure you learn and grow in the stories you hear on humanizing tech.