April Leonard: Finding Joy

Our very own April Leonard (she/her) joins us on the PDXWIT podcast! April is an Engineering Manager at GitHub and also leads our Podcast Volunteer Team. With a passion for playing music, ballet, and growing people, April pivoted from the arts, to math, to eventually tech, and ultimately managing teams.

We asked April where she gets the inspiration to “stay up” even in the dark days, how she approaches management, and how she creates and facilitates joy. She regales us with what happens from networking and being a little scrappy, why moms make good managers, and why staying curious and seeking common ground with others matter. Thanks for listening! Find some joy out there.

Transcript

Introduction: 

Welcome to humanizing tech. We interview people to dig below the surface of their achievements and challenges showcasing the story behind the story. We believe that focusing on the person and humanizing their lived experiences will help us shape the future of tech. Humanizing tech is brought to you by Kiva. Kiva is an international nonprofit working to expand financial access to help underserved communities thrive. 100% of every dollar you lend on Kiva goes to funding loans. By lending as little as $25 you can be part of the solution and make a real difference in someone's life. More than 80% of the borrowers Kiva serves around the world are women. Learn more at kiva.org.

Dawn Mott:

I'd like to take a moment to acknowledge our indigenous Oregonians as well as the history and legacy of racism and colonialism. PDXWIT recognizes that the ongoing violence, trauma and erasure native Americans face is part of colonialist structures. And we are actively fighting against it. Portland rests on traditional village sites of the Multnomah, Cathlamet, Clackamas Chinook, Tualatin, Calapooya, Molalla, and many other tribes who made their homes along the Columbia river. We endeavor to have this be more than just words. The tech industry is building the future of our world, and it's up to us to ensure that that is a future for all. To find out more about how we're supporting the future of indigenous Oregonians and native Americans, please visit PDXWIT.com/land-acknowledgement. Thank you.

Jesselle Hedman: Awesome. Thanks so much for starting us off with that, Don. I really appreciate it. 

DM: Oh yeah. 

JH: We're excited to be here today. With one of our most favorite people, Don, would you do the honors of introducing this person?

DM: Yes, I will. Before I do, I'm going to go out and say, I am Dawn Mott. I go by she/her pronouns, who the heck are you?

JH: Who the heck am I? I'm Jesselle! I forget again, we're not live, I forget this. I'm just Jesselle, she/her pronouns as well. I'm very excited to be here on this lovely, it's actually a pretty sunny day.

DM: It is a pretty sunny day. I've got all of my flowers popping and I am ready to announce our special guests today. Someone who I've known for the past couple of years through this amazing podcast, someone who really makes this podcast happen. I'm not sure that it would, if it was not for the amazing April Leonard! Not only a wonderful lead on our podcast team, but also an engineering manager and a brilliant engineer herself, April, will you join us please?

April Leonard: Hello, hello Dawn, and Jesselle, so happy to be here. April Leonard, she/her and I think I've been putting off being on the podcast. People keep saying, Hey, you should just, you should come on with us. And I'm like, Oh, I don't want to talk about myself. So here I am doing it and I couldn’t be happier to do it here. And Dawn, there's a reason, too, why today is special. Do you want to maybe share a little bit about that?

DM:

Well, I think the most special reason is that you're here with us! [laughs] But if you want to talk about sad news, when we start, this is my last posting of the PDXWIT podcast and it makes me cry. [feigns crying] But I took this really awesome job as an operations manager of this cool nonprofit called PDXWIT! So I work here now, I'm no longer a volunteer and we're going to open this position up to another wonderful volunteer from our community to help share these stories. So I'm super sad, but I could not be more excited that we finally roped April in after over a year and a half of asking. So she's finally comfortable now. We didn't force her. 

AL: This had to be it, Dawn. This was it. 

DM: Now or never. So, welcome! 

JH: Congratulations Dawn, PDXWIT is so incredibly lucky to have you in this position. So I'm so happy for you as well.

DM:

Thank you. Yeah, I couldn't be more bummed about the podcast, but I couldn't be more pleased about the reason behind it. So yay! Okay. So now on that note of positivity, I went through my own really dark days of a long job hunt. And while I was going through this, one of the people I leaned on for support was April. Not only was she there for me for anything with the podcast, but just, she's a real human and I'm a real human. And she was able to sit with me and talk through some of my darkest hours and keep me really positive. So I just want to say that something I always admired about you, and I'm curious, where do you find the inspiration to stay up when we go through some of these dark days that we've been having?

AL:

Yes. I think that's an important point that we have all been having some, some dark days, and still in the midst of the pandemic now. And it's just been a really long road. And I'm so glad that I could be there with you in that Dawn. I just, you were such a lovely human. And I think as we were kind of talking a little bit about today and, and really where that positivity comes from, I think, growing up one of my biggest mentors and inspirations was my grandma. She was just a person that had this joy about her. She was deeply interested in other people and their stories. And she also just wanted to have fun. I mean, she was always telling jokes and laughing and even when she started to get older and her body really started to shut down and she was in a lot of pain.

I remember her telling me that every day she gets to make a choice about what kind of day she's going to have. And she can have a good day or a bad day. And even in some of the most painful times in her life, she would just, I remember her saying, I have just decided today is going to be a good day. And I recognize that I have a lot of privilege and that when I'm making those choices, it's still a difficult choice. Sometimes it's an easier choice or sometimes you think it would be a really hard choice for anybody, but I still strive to find joy in every choice that I make. So yeah, I think that's where a lot of that comes from is that inspiration and modeling that I had early on. 

DM:

Thank you for sharing that. I came from more of a jaded East coast, New York background. So joy wasn't necessarily something that we had modeled constantly for us in that way. So I love hearing that and I have taken that with me and some of the days where I feel the most down, like I do ask, what of that, can I take on his responsibility and make a different choice today? And today I definitely choose to be happy!

JH:

Yes, exactly. Through your professional journey, how have you found spaces to create and facilitate that joy in your career?

AL:

That's a good question. Well maybe we could rewind a little bit and I'll tell you a little bit about kind of how I made it into tech. So I'm an engineering manager at github right now, a staff engineering manager. And so I kind of take on bigger complex systems, but I actually started out… I went to school at university to be a choir conductor. So I was a music major at the time. And I realized pretty early on in that journey I would need to be really good at the piano to be at the level I really wanted to be. And I knew it was going to take so much effort and it just wasn't where my passion was. My passion was definitely in music. And part of being a conductor is like growing people.

And so, even in my early jobs, I would kind of like working in a cafe or I worked at the zoo in food service. But I was 15 and they're like, okay, you should be at the cafe now. And I'm like, really? Okay. So I think I always had some of that kind of management I kind of applied to the choir, but I just knew that I had to invest in this thing to be at the level that I wanted to be. And so I, I basically just decided not to pursue it. And I switched over to math because I was like, well, I'm good at math. I'll just keep doing more of that.

And I mean, some people really know where they're going. I don't think I've ever exactly known, sometimes I gravitate towards a thing. And, and I kind of know, and I latched onto that, but then I'm also really open and accepting to just giving it up if it's not working. So to look at that not as a failure because I'm not one who likes to make mistakes, but I have also really learned to give myself grace and choose joy.

JH: No, absolutely. And it sounds to me like this, this is part of your journey specifically was about choosing that happiness for yourself. 

AL: Exactly. 

JH: And kind of projecting into that space. Well, how did that switch to math facilitate your growth in tech? I'd love to hear about that.

AL: 

Yeah, totally. So I was like I should probably apply this math in some way. And then another opportunity came along to study abroad. And when I was in that kind of program in different countries they have different ways of approaching education. And so I went to Aberystwyth in Wales and there it's basically the same as Portland. It's just gray and rainy. And so it wasn't all that much of a shift in some ways, which was really funny. But I think the way that they approach their education was solely focused on computer science. So what happened is I was actually able to accelerate my degree, which was great because I couldn't really afford to go more than four years.

So I was kind of like, okay, computer science. We had computers at home when I was young, my dad was kind of a computer nerd. So he modeled a lot of that. I just had access to computers really early on. And so I think there was a little bit of me that rejected wanting to dig in there, but at the same time, it was very natural and built on skills I already had. So yeah, I think those two things kind of came together and I went ahead and pursued that degree and came out as a computer science major.

JH:

Very cool. Well, very cool. So tell me about the shift from academia into work. And maybe any of the learnings in that shift. You made a series of choices, right? That created a different outcome in that space. So I'd love to hear how your series of choices in the professional space and any learnings that you had there that kind of propelled you in the direction that you've gone in.

AL:

Yeah, I did. I ended up moving, so I had kind of a choice of when I moved back to Portland… there was an opening for a VB position. And even at that time VB was kind of older and older technology… 

DM: What’s VB?

AL: Ah! visual basic. 

DM: Oh, wow. You're so cool, April!  

AL: Aw, thank you. And I decided not to pursue that. And so instead I ended up back in Portland, which is my hometown, just because I love Portland. And there was like 10% unemployment at the time. And so I got a job at a coffee shop again. And eventually I did find somebody in my network who worked in tech that when I got a job is doing really manual quality assurance. 

DM: Shout out to networking! A cafe to networking, to a job. 

AL: And when I was at the cafe, people would come in and I ended up going and fixing people's computers in the apartment building that I was in. So I would just go and they would be like, Oh, you know, yeah, 50 bucks a year for come fix a computer, another 100  bucks over there to build out somebody's website. So I definitely was just kind of scrappy. 

DM: Side hustle, before it was cool. 

JH: Freelance, we call this freelance. Sometimes this is how you start out in freelance. Right. And get what you can. 

AL:  Exactly. And it was networking too, right. Because I'm at the cafe, I'm talking to people, people are coming in. I think it goes back to my grandma who is really interested in other people's stories.. I have yet to find somebody I can't connect with in some way.  You listen to their stories and just find, find ways to connect in and know other humans better is just really, maybe that makes me an extrovert. That’s the definition of an extrovert. You gain energy from interactions with others.

JH: Oh, I love that. I love that. So that then transpired into you're in a job now. So how did that natural leadership piece that you've spoken about being asked to lead the cafe at the zoo or as a 15 year old people were sensing this leadership. So how did that leadership get acknowledged once you found yourself in your professional career?

AL: That's a great question. Yeah I worked in various jobs, kind of realized at some point that quality assurance was really deconstructing problems and I was enjoying kind of building rather than constructing. So I did end up moving into building software and worked at some really amazing companies building some really cool products. And then, after about nine years of building software, I found out that I was actually more interested in kind of reading, just in my spare time or in my kind of professional development time, I was interested in reading more about management. And that actually coincided with when I was pregnant with my first kiddo. So I have two kids now and I was reading a lot of parenting books and people were more of my focus. And so I think it was just kind of a natural time. I built this space, I solved a lot of problems. And so that's when I  started my transition into management

DM:

And you'd probably had a lot of managers too, by this point. So you knew some good, some bad, what was it like your first time being in a quote unquote managerial role?

AL: 

That's a good question. In some respects I look back and I had some really tough problems to solve. So when we think about what are hard management problems, it's talking to people and helping them understand if they're having a negative impact on the team, understanding what that impact is, and then helping them understand, giving them a choice really, right? Are you going to make a choice to have a positive impact or are you going to make a choice to maybe do something else? And so I had to have some of those really tough conversations really early on. So I think it's a lot of that talking to people, a lot of that networking, a lot of understanding what people's stories are and why they're having that impact, so it's not the person that is the problem. It's like there is a problem and how can we work together and partner to solve it? And so I think some of those skills that I had early on just kind of translated pretty naturally. And it was really tiring at first. 

JH: Well I was going to say, the energy that you bring is a little bit, you know, software engineering can be a very hard science-based process, right? There isn't necessarily a lot of empathy and leadership. So it doesn't shock me that you found yourself being attracted to that, knowing that you were occupying a space that not everybody had the chance to interact with a manager like that.

AL: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. And you bring up a good point, in software I was building systems and I hadn't kind of built up this like systems thinking, right? So there's the very detailed, granular problem set like why, how do we make this computation faster? And then there's this other broad, broader problem set, which is like, how do these systems interact? What should the contract be between these two systems? And I found that with management, I really am focused on there's a technology piece for sure. There's a project piece or a product-customer kind of piece where you're trying to think about how do we achieve something and for who? And then there’s the people piece, which is like the people that are the team that is building the software and there's really knowing from an early on that, you can't clean a cafe by yourself, and it really does take the team and there's all kinds of things, sports analogies, or whatever kinds of analogies you want to apply to it that really having that deep understanding that it’s the team functioning, a really high functioning team is just going to be so much more productive and, I keep saying it, but have joy. 

We built in so much time of our lives applied to our professions and we should have fun doing it in a way that is inclusive. In a way that's not that early, I went through a lot of the early days of the programmer philosophy and having those kinds of…  I definitely encountered my fair share of microaggressions and people who were just blockers to my career growth. And I think that, finding those spaces and showing up, maybe one of the things that I did early on was just expect more from people, this has to be a space where I'm comfortable and take that space. And that was, it took time to grow into that.

And then at some point when I became a manager, now I have more power. I can actually be the person that either expects that from my people, that models it, that can create that space to make it really inclusive. And yeah, so I think that's really been another thing that's been really powerful. And I'm not a super hierarchical, I don't look at it at systems very hierarchically. But there is power there, there is a power differential. And I recognize it, understand the power and want to be somebody who can role model a positive environment.

DM: Thank you. Because heck yeah, we should find joy at work. Are you joking? 

JH: That's the point in my opinion, that should be the point. We should be able to thrive each as an individual in the spaces that we work in. Absolutely. wow. So such a cool, such a cool, cool journey. We just went through there. Thank you so much for sharing

DM: And great modeling. Thank you for being that person and being able in the tech industry, be outspoken about being able to find common ground with anyone and just showing up with people. You're building massive technology, but you're actually interacting with a human being. And so are you, thank you. 

JH: Totally. Yeah. I'd love to hear if you don't mind. As a manager, you've now been in the management space for quite some time and I'm sure that you have so many stories under your belt of difficult situations that you've helped someone through or kind of mentored through. And I'd love to know on that side of things, now you've been a leader. So I'm sure that you have become a mentor in some spaces, and I'd love to hear how maybe you have shifted into your whole kind of philosophy of management seems to be mentor based. So I'd love to hear kind of about how you engage with the folks that report to you in terms of their growth and what are the keys to growing people? April tell us. 

AL:  I love that. I love that. I'm like, Oh, I have a philosophy. Sometimes you don't know until people tell you I have a story. Well, yeah. So I had one person telling me that they, I was like a yoga teacher. So I was just always asking for the next thing, just stretching them a little bit, but not too many things, you know, I'm not asking for shifts in all these places, but just maybe one thing each time. And I love that analogy because I've heard the same thing that way, many times for many different people. So I'm pretty sure it's true.

DM:  Yeah. You're very incremental growth. You don't have to just go from a to Z it's like [singing] A B C D E F G. 

AL: Yeah, exactly. 

JH: Wow, Dawn. Beautiful.

But yes, and understanding where that person's at is also what I'm hearing in that is understanding the incremental push that that individual needs at that moment.

AL: 

Yes, exactly. And that honestly comes from the people themselves, right? I think sometimes people talk about the Socratic method. It's like, I know where you're going and so, or where you need to go. And so I'm going to help you get there. I don't believe in that method. I believe that we're coming up with a path together. Right. and so it's my job to, I bring my expertise to know the people, the different styles and tools that can work or not work, but it's really the individual that's telling me where they want to go. Tell me where their passion is, where their excitement is. I feel like we overuse and abuse the word passion these days, but it really makes me sad because there is something there that you can get passionate and excited about.

And, and so I want to harness and figure out what that is. And you don't have to know where they're going. You don't have to know where you're going to be in five years. If you do know where you want to get to in five years, that's great. Let's start there and then kind of think about different ways we could get there and brainstorm. And if you don't know where you're going, that's fine too. Well, what makes you enjoy yourself? What are you interested in? What are you curious about? What's going to unlock that energy that's coming inside of you? And hey, maybe you don't have energy right now. That's okay too. None of us really have energy. Right. And so that also just knowing that, Hey, I'm going to show up and just do the best that I can and is, is really important too.

But there are things that are going to get people down. And so knowing those kinds of knowing your own strengths and building on those, but then also not ignoring the opportunities because sometimes the opportunities are things that might block you in that longer journey. And they are things that we actually have to solve for. Or grow into. So I think really just helping people kind of unlock that journey and having them do it with the personal side, but then also obviously the business context, right? We don't get to build cool things unless we have something to build towards. And so it is a balance of finding the individual's growth and helping them, but then also just whatever we're trying to build whatever, trying to make whatever, hopefully customer that we are building for.

I don't think I've worked at a company yet where I haven't been able to connect with that customer story because what we do is we enable people. Even when I was going to, when I was developing the core engine for an adaptive test testing framework at first I was like, Oh, awesome. We're helping kids understand how they're doing at a point in time and what skill gaps they might have. And there was a time where I thought that was a really valuable mission. And then I think that we kind of stopped.. We started misusing the tool and it started becoming this litmus test for how a school might be doing. And then they may end up kind of gaming the system to try to get their scores up.

And it became really difficult for all third graders in the entire United States, there's no child left behind - all third graders have to be at some level and if they're not XYZ. And so I do think that's one of those things where it's like, I connected with the individual, the student, right. We can give them information. We can give teachers power in knowing where a kid is. And sometimes that tool is misused and that didn't make me feel good, but at the core of it, I'm like, no, this is actually really, this is a valuable tool. And so going through that journey of really connecting with and being connected with that mission of who you're trying to serve in the world is really important.

And it's not always going to be a linear thing. It's not always going to be a positive thing. There's going to be rough edges to any business. And so knowing again just aligning the mission and aligning to the customer value that you're providing. So I think there's that aspect to it too, where it's like I'm growing to people, but I'm also growing the business and kind of tying the mission and the why together, because we all want to feel like we're doing something positive for the planet.

JH:  Absolutely. And what again what a powerful acknowledgment of the power that we each have in these spaces, right? It's not only you, but it's the folks that you get to lift up. Those individual contributors that you get to help them see their potential within that scope. So much power within that. So cool. So cool. And to your point of really growing folks where they're at. I think there's a big call-out to be made that you don't have to know where you want to go in five years. I want to reiterate from someone who has been a manager for a long time. She said, you do not have to know where you want to go. And I think finding the people that will help you figure that out, people like April, is the key. And that's what I hope people who are individual contributors that are hearing this are hearing that sentiment from what April is saying, because there is a lot of power in that as well.

DM:  And on that same note, you have been a manager, but once you went into management, is that where you stayed?

AL: Oh, that's a good question. So yeah, I did move from that really early phase. I managed for two years and then actually after I had my second kiddo, I took off for three months. That was kind of the leave that I had available. And then I did a little bit of consulting, a couple days a week, again, leveraging those network skills, and found somebody who just had a kind of random project. And two days a week, I was incredibly lucky to have my mother help out with childcare. She was lucky too, because I have really cute kids. So I would just go over there, and I would just kinda do a little work a couple days a week and, and pick up some money that way.

So yeah, that was a really fun kind of period. And then after that, I did go back to as an individual contributor for a year and then made the switch to management again. So I don't know.  I think that we're all starting to recognize that our paths don't have to be linear. But I think there's still, sometimes it's easy to say, Oh, well, I can't grow if I don't take the well laid path or I can't get to where I want to go if I don't do these steps or do things other people do. I went to university and got a degree, but now folks are coming in through boot camps and through engineering spaces.

And it doesn't have to be a single method. And I think it's shortsighted when folks expect that you have to be on a particular trajectory. And also we bring so much! I skipped the whole part about when I was young, I was going to be a professional ballerina. I almost quit school when I was going to go into high school and just start dancing instead. And I made a decision then well, it's really hard on your body. And I just said, I think I actually want to choose going to prom, which is looking back, like what? Prom was terrible! What was I thinking? [laughs] 

JH: Well, and you know what? I was a pre-professional ballerina and gave up that path because of things like prom and school dances. And it seems stupid. However, there is an experience attached to that. And that informs a piece of our reality today. 

AL: Exactly. 

DM: Yeah I would say I would never go back to high school, but, I guess I'm glad I did it once. 

[all laughing]

JH: What a positive, positive, outlook to have Dawn.

AL: I live it.

DM:  I'm just saying I never even considered that both of you had the opportunity to do something else, a career outside of traditional high school. And now look at you both in tech from ballerinas! 

JH:  Amazing. So wild it's so wild. Well, April I had no idea that the piano that has sat behind you this whole time, that I've known you had a whole meaning that I didn't know about. 

DM: Oh, ask her about the guitar! 

JH: Oh, so, well, so I wanted to ask this at the beginning, but I kind of wanted to save it to the end. If you went to school for music, there are some musical instruments that you play. And I would love to hear about them, even if you're not a professional, classic pianist, I would bet you have some skills.

AL: 

Yeah, I know exactly what Dawn’s getting at here, so yeah.  I do flick around on the piano here and there. Singing in the shower, just the things that honestly make me happy. And I do sing to my kids every night. So I get my guitar out and that's part of our bedtime routine and my kids are six and eight now. So it's been happening for the last eight years, except for when I'm out on a happy hour with some of my lady friends. Every night I try to build I try to build music, I try to build movement. Tthat comes from the dance. I try to build those things into my life to bringing it, this is also a part about just being a whole person.

I think that sometimes we think that tech people in the tech field have to only be interested in computers. They have to have side projects and hobby projects and they have to be at their computers all the time. I'm a runner, I'm a climber. I ski. I like to do all kinds of things. I like to incorporate movement and incorporate music and incorporate these things that make me happy into my life. And I can still be interested in a technology podcast. I can still be interested in technical things and solving problems without that having to be my identity and I can still be successful.

JH:  Absolutely. If you all could see us, there's a lot of validation going on right now. So I just want to call it that out. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And yes. And some more. Yes. So fantastic. So fantastic. Music was a big part of my life growing up. And I can hear my mother playing the guitar in my head all the time, and I can guarantee that will be an experience your children get to have. That is so powerful. I'm sure April, you've now been a part-time teacher this past year as well. And I would bet that music and movement have found its way into those spaces as well. Right?

AL: 

Yeah, definitely. You know, I've had the kids at home for almost a year and it's been very challenging. I do feel really, really lucky that they have both been able to, so I have one kid who's in kindergarten but he has been able to read. And so he has been kind of able to self motivate, but yeah, there's definitely been moments where it was he would finish an assignment and then just, it would just say done, but there's nothing done on it. Right. And sometimes it would be like, okay, well we have to walk through this. You have to do your best work. And so you're going to, this is maybe a lot of information, but we have a whiteboard in our home where we have a weekly meetings and we come up with goals.

And so every Sunday, we talk about, they have the kids done their chores? Have they been helpers that are in our house, then they get an allowance? What goals did we try to achieve this week? And how did we do? And there's only like three of them, but then, that goal then became, do your best work. And there were also times where it was the kid who would have to do something that he had already mastered. And so I would ask him, is this hard or easy? Is this helping you grow? And if it wasn't then writing done was fine, actually I'm okay. Would it be better if you did this other activity and that would help you, challenge you. However, we still need to communicate about that.

So you need to come back to me and say, Hey, this is, I just said done because I actually decided to spend my time doing this somewhere else. And, that's a pretty nuanced discussion for a five-year-old, but he gets it, you know what I mean? And I had this come to me with folks that report to me now where they would be like, Oh, I'm not going to meet this goal. And I said, well, was it a helpful goal? And if it's not okay, then let's just communicate about it and pick something else. I don't want you to do work for work's sake. That's activity. That's not outcomes. And so we all, we all want outcomes. And we just need to align on what the outright outcomes are. And what we can bring is not going through the motions, being thoughtful.

Right. And it's about retrospecting, it's about thinking deeply and engaging. When I talk about about things like passion or joy or engagement, or our customers, and who are obsessed with all of those things, they're all wrapped up together, you know? They all kind of help us have fun and joy and get to those outcomes. So I think a lot of the things that I do at home just reinforce the things that I do… it just becomes life.. There's no home life, it is being about being that whole person. And it's about bringing these same energy to all the things. And if you're having joy in it, then it doesn't feel like an energy blocker. It's just, the energy flows.

JH: 

Wow. What a beautiful way to think about that. Thank you so much for sharing April. This has been one of my most favorite conversations I've gotten to have. But that perspective is something we can all take with us into essentially every aspect of where we exist. We can choose to bring the positive energy and let it flow. When we can, of course, and then being open to knowing when things aren't working for you and serving you. Such a valuable lesson. Thank you so much.

DM:

I love it. Thank you April. 

AL: Thank you so much for having me on today. I am going to miss you so much, Dawn, you have been such an amazing cohost and brought so much life and so many stories to life. So thank you for everything you've done and they're going to miss you. And we're so excited. You're not going very far because he can still hang out. You have just

JH:  You have just been so wonderful, Dawn. Dawn, we're going to take them another moment because your contributions to this podcast have made it absolutely, without a doubt part of what it is today. I also I'm going to take this moment to shout out Kimberly Embry, who also was a founding co-host of this podcast. Before we started this little chat today I mentioned that I recently just received a pair of beautiful earrings from Kimberly's line Casa Kasama. And we got to celebrate that a little bit before we had this conversation, which felt just like a wonderful rounding moment, Kimberly departed from us so she could go on her creative journey. Dawn is departing from this podcast to go on her own fantastic career journey. And we're just so excited to be part of the evolution of this with you all. So thank you, Dawn. Thank you, Kimberly. Thank you April for making this what it is.

DM: 

I know. Thank you all. Thank you, max, for editing out all of our mega weirdness, what would we do without you?

JH: Max is behind the scenes the biggest gem we have here here y'all he makes us sound so wonderful. 

DM: Yeah.Max predates us all. Max has been on this podcast since minute one. I think so. Thank you. 

JH: It takes a village. 

DM: Have Katie behind the scenes chopping out some of our awkwardness too. 

JH: Thank goodness. 

DM: We got Jana writing it all down.

JH:  Elizabeth, making sure we know what's going on. 

DM:  And we have a whole other podcast where Anusha and Ochuko tell more amazing stories about people who are just, I was going to say blowing up, but that's not a very positive word. They are though. They are doing amazing things in tech and blowing our minds!

JH:  We're so lucky to be in this company. And April, I think you've done a fantastic job of reminding us of that today. So thank you.

DM: 

Thank you. Do you want to share anything else with our community before you go?

AL: 

Oh I want to share - just know yourself, be curious about others, connect. It's hard right now because we're all away from each other, but take those moments to pause, pause for yourself, pause for others and look at those choices. And if you make a choice that today's going to be a bad day, that's okay too, but the next day you can wake up and make a different choice if you want to. So give yourself grace and yeah. Find some joy out there.

DM: 

Love it. Thank you everyone. Let's take that joy into the weekend, into next week and to spring into summer, into fall, into winter and 2022, and then we'll give each other hugs, how about that? Okay. I truly cannot wait to meet you. Thank you everyone. Thanks community. We out! 

Outro:

PDXWIT is a 501 C3 nonprofit with the purpose of encouraging women non-binary and underrepresented people to join tech and supporting and empowering them so they stay in tech. Find out more about us at www.pdxwit.org. Like this podcast? subscribe! and like us on your favorite podcast platform. Want to give us feedback, contact us at podcast@pdxwit.org to help us improve and ensure you learn and grow in the stories you hear on humanizing tech.