Rihana Mungin: Space science

Rihana Mungin (she/her) is a Mechanical Engineering Graduate Research Assistant and the Board Treasurer for PDXWIT. She joins us on the podcast to share about her experience in academia as a Black woman and what it's like to learn through the eyes of astronauts. We discuss learning from failure, how arts and drama can build confidence in any career path, and how finding the right team bolsters a sense of belonging. Listen to find out what can happen when you find a welcoming, supportive community and some fun facts about sending weave to space and getting slimed by Nickelodeon.

Find Rihana on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Welcome to Humanizing Tech. We interview people to dig below their achievements and challenges, showcasing the story behind the story. We believe that focusing on the person and humanizing their lived experiences will help us shape the future of tech. 

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Dawn Mott: Well everyone, welcome. We are waiting for some people to get here. It looks like some people are here now, so we are super happy. I'm going to go ahead and let's take a moment to acknowledge the land that we are on. [pause] PDXWIT - we have events over Portland, Oregon and beyond and for a moment we are going to pause to acknowledge the history of the area and work toward decolonization of the tech industry. So Portland rests on traditional village sites of the Multnomah, Kathlamet, Clackamas, Chinook, Tualatin, Kalapuya, Molalla and many other tribes who made their homes along the Columbia River. So please join us in another moment of acknowledgment for this land that we are on. [pause] If you would like to learn more, we have a link we will add to the show notes from the PDXWIT podcast website. Actually, just the regular PDXWIT regular website and it will tell you about more action that we are taking along with land acknowledgment.

So if you need closed captions, we have Alaina doing some captions for us. There should be a link, bottom right. And now that we've gotten a lot of the business out of the way, we can be happy to be here. Yay! 

Jesselle Hedman: Yay, welcome. This is exciting. This is our first ever live episode. We have not ever done this before, so welcome. I am Jesselle. My pronouns are she/her. Hi! Super happy to be here.

Dawn: And I am Dawn Mott. I also used she/her pronouns. And like Jesselle mentioned, this is our first ever live episode, so that means we get to involve the audience, yay! It's more than just two of us asking questions. Let's see, there can be like 40 or more of us. Let's ask questions. If you want to use the Q&A and not the chat for your questions, that would really help us. We are going to try to answer some questions at the end. If they fit in the conversation, we will try to pop them in.

Jesselle: Yes! Thank you, Dawn. For those of you who aren’t familiar, PDXWIT is a nonprofit organization with the goal of building a better tech industry. We advance this goal by creating access, dismantling inequities, and fueling belonging within the industry.

We have events, mentor programs, a scholarship fund, job board, and a bunch of other initiatives, this podcast included.

Dawn: So I can't help but be biased, but I'm going to say this is one of my favorite PDXWIT initiatives. I am so blessed to have these conversations with so many people that I might not have gotten to talk to if it wasn't for the podcast and actually get to dig in below the surface and have more than just an area conversation and get to know what makes people tick and get to know how do you get where you are. We’ve gotten to look behind the journey of engineers and CEOs. And Jesselle, do you have any favorite moments of the podcast so far?

Jesselle: I think the way I got appointed is pretty exciting. I had a friend of mine who was a guest, Marcus Carter, and he had a great experience, and I was asked to be a guest myself. And that was really fun. It was really fun to -- I think was actually one of the last things I did with PDXWIT prior to lockdown. Was it? Yeah!

Dawn: Yeah, we saw you in person. 

Jesselle: Yeah exactly we did it in person and it was a wonderful experience so I would definitely say that one. 

Dawn: Yay! Thanks. I’m glad you enjoyed being a guest. 

Jesselle: Absolutely. We are so excited to have everyone here. It looks like we are up to 43. It's quite possible, you know, this is one of our most attended events in this capacity. Thanks so much for being with us. And happy Black history month. Dawn, are you doing anything cool for this month to celebrate?

Dawn: Not as cool as I wanted. I wanted to go back to Atlanta and check out some historic sites but since I could not do that, I did the MLK Junior national Park site tour in Atlanta but a lot of the tour is not open to the public right now, so it is super cool that you are able to go online and check out that stuff. I am also going to rewatch -- I made -- I may destroy you on HBO because I’m annoyed that the show did not get any Golden Globe nods. 

Jesselle: Agree, agree, I couldn’t agree more.

Dawn: Are you doing anything special?

Jesselle: I am totally going to take this moment to plug this amazing cookbook, because it's awesome. It’s by Toni Tipton-Martin. It's called Jubilee. NPR actually featured it I think last year.

It's a recipe from two centuries of African-American cooking. It's like a history book mixed with a cookbook. So reading this, learning more things about my ancestors and the way that we cooked and the way that we continue to honor those recipes through sharing food. Something that I am truly passionate about.

Dawn: That is super rad. And now after I get off of this Zoom call, I'm going to get that book because it sounds great, I would love to learn more from our ancestors.

Jesselle: Absolutely. Well, on that note, we are excited to learn more about the black experience and academia and working as a liaison with astronauts in outer space through the eyes of our wonderful guest, Rihana Mungin. Welcome.

Dawn: Rihana Mungin uses she/her pronouns. She is the board treasurer at PDXWIT and graduating from PSU with a Masters in mechanical engineering with research focused on microgap previty, capillary fluidics, aka studying liquids in space. Supercool. Welcome, Rihana.

Rihana: Hi. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Jesselle: We are so excited that you are here. Like I asked Dawn, what are you doing this month, anything special to celebrate Black history?

Rihana: Yes. So I've been working with leadership with PDXWIT to develop a lot of the programming for our theme this month of black history and black futures. It has been super exciting. And since you said you were talking about a cookbook, I got this cookbook for Christmas by Marcus Samuelson. I'm excited to try some of these recipes from here. I think the thing that I am the most excited about is on Friday, so this whole week we have been working on experiments, and this morning I was awake at 1:00 a.m., so I am a little loopy today. Hopefully, I do not get too tongue-tied.So this week we have experience happening on this international space station. For the first time on Friday I will be the one who is running the show. I will be talking directly to the astronauts. I will actually be talking to Victor Glover. He is a black astronaut. This is just an exciting moment, because I can be the black scientist talking to a black astronaut, and I don't know that that has ever happened before. It's a really awesome moment for me.

Dawn: What an amazing way to kick off 2021.Black in space.

Rihana: Black in space, I love that.

Jesselle: I love that a lot. Well, congratulations. This is also exciting. 

Rihana: Thank you. 

Jesselle: Well, I'd love to jump into our conversation. Tell me a little bit more about what you referred to as the nine circles of hell you went through to find yourself graduating from your masters program.

Rihana: Yeah, I mean, I was pretty unusual when I graduated from high school and I wanted to go into mechanical engineering. I had a teacher that, basically, sat me down and said, this is what you should be doing. You have the mind for this. This is where you belong. But, In hindsight, I wasn't really ready to get into college, you know, I didn't really have my Bearings. I moved away to a university that I did not even visit for my first year, and I really struggled. I ended up dropping out of that school and moving back home. My parents lived at the time in St. Helens, Oregon, which is a very rural town just outside of Portland. After just a couple weeks of living there, it's like, I can't just live here, I've got to go back to school.

But I still struggled. I didn't really have a good way to balance my academics and my schooling. You know, I didn't really know how to reach out and get the support that I needed. So it was really challenging. I was lucky to stay associated with the University by working there, but even there that had challenges. Honestly, if it wasn't for people who recognize something within me, I would not be where I am today, because I had incredible amounts of support from the director of the department that I worked for, professors that saw something within me.

It took a lot of trial and error and success and failure and resilience to get there.

Dawn: You always wanted to be a mechanical engineer, but when you started college, is that the route that you took?

Rihana: Yeah.

Dawn: Ok so you've always done this. Always, always known. 

Rihana: That was always my degree.

Dawn: That's amazing.

Jesselle: That's awesome. I am curious to note within that, where do you think that maybe you faced challenges that were a little bit unexpected?

Rihana: You know, I don't think it is unexpected, but -- and this is still true to today, I really struggle with imposter syndrome and feeling like I belong. I mean, I love engineering. I love what I do.

I love solving the problems, but I really struggle with the environment because, I mean, there is nobody who looks like me who is in the administration in engineering. There's nobody that looks likely that is teaching my classes. There are very few classmates, if any, who look like me and can identify with my experience, so it is very isolating.

I think it is unintentional, but it feels like I am alone. And it really is challenging to feel like I'm good enough and I belong in that space. So I struggle constantly with imposter syndrome, and it's this horrible anxiety that I'm sure everybody has and has felt before. It's, you know, it's not unexpected but it is a constant struggle.

Jesselle: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think someone who spends a lot of their time talking to people about how they feel about their jobs, that comes up so often in these highly technical positions and spaces where, like you said, you are the only, if not one of a few. Thank you so much for your transparency and sharing that. Awesome. Well, let's talk about, you know, within that failing. Because part of learning is failing. Talk to me about failure and kind of your experience learning from that.

Rihana: You know, when I decided to -- so I dropped out of school once and then went to Portland State and then I dropped out again. Doing that was just such a blow to the ego. I just felt like I couldn't do anything. There were a lot of things going on in my life that not being in school was the best thing for me. But it's still like, you can't know that at that moment.

When you have a class and you do not pass a class, that's totally embarrassing. It's totally disheartening. It makes you feel like you cannot do anything. Again, I had people right there that were just like, you do belong here, you are just having a tough time, just keep going. And now I am going to talk to an astronaut on Friday.

So it's kind of like being able to learn from those mistakes and learn from what was actually a barrier that has helped me become more resilient and able to be more successful down the road.

Jesselle: Totally. I had a similar experience at PSU, so I am glad to hear that in various departments they are doing that. [laughs] 

Dawn: I want to know how you got involved with outer space.

Rihana: Yeah.

Dawn:  Just to put it flatly out there. How did this happen - mechanical engineering to outer space?

Rihana: So when I was in my junior year of engineering, like I was taking my junior level classes, I was so burnt out I was working almost full-time at the University, and I was going to school full-time. I was at a point where it's like, I can't do this. I need something in my life that makes it worth it and the person who is my advisor now had this project with the solar eclipse back in 2017 and it was sent a weather balloon to the stratosphere to get images of the eclipse shadow as it passed over Oregon. There was this whole program with NASA students had to apply to. I had nothing else to keep me motivated, I'm going to apply to this and see what happens. He picked me as part of the program. We flew out to Montana and we used high altitude balloons and all this technology and I kept with the program until the eclipse and I ended up leading the team and being the one in charge and telling everybody what to do and getting those balloons in the air.

From there I had someone tell me, you should get your masters degree. And that professor, most of his research with NASA is dealing with liquids in space and how can we create better life-support technology. So it was just this random thought where it's like, I need something in my life and it turned into this incredible opportunity.

Dawn: So you follow your passions, or you looked for a passion.

Rihana: Yeah. Because originally, I wanted to go into green building science, like that was my plan to be in sustainability and work with green buildings and that was it. That was my plan by the time I worked in the facilities department at PSU. 

Dawn: Very cool. 

Rihana: But it just wasn’t… I didn't love it. You know, when I took this opportunity, I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life. I was just like, there is no other chance that I'm going to be working this closely with NASA and NASA engineers. I just gotta do it and see what happens! I'm really glad that I did.

Jesselle: Big time. Well, tell us more about the liquids in space. I feel like you have had a couple different uniquely specific experiences. Tell us about that.

Rihana: Yeah. So my work is in like three different sections. What I was working on today is plant water management. We are looking at new ways to water plants in space. NASA wants to develop new technology because we need ways to give nutrition to astronauts when they are going on that long mission to Mars. That is like a three-year mission. They are going to take a lot of their food but deep space radiation degrades nutrition density in food, so they need ways to get their vitamins. We are hoping that we can help them grow food by using a hydroponic plant watering method. 

The experiment that we worked on today was actually investigating a soil-based method, which they are not going to use for Mars missions, but they might use the results of that technology on the moon, because they are going back to the moon. Like that is where NASA is going next. Another section that I have worked on is called capillary structures for exploration life-support, which is a mouthful, but that's looking at new technology to help life-support systems.

A big one is -  I do not know how much you know this - but almost everything is recycled for the astronauts for use of the coffee that they drink in the morning that comes out as urine then becomes the coffee that they drink the next day, and they have to reuse as much of that water as possible. So we are looking at ways to better process that wastewater and make it so that there is a 98% recycle rate for the water so they can make it to Mars and back with taking almost all of the original water.

And then we are looking at ways to better take out carbon dioxide from the air. But, honestly, the most exciting project - I mean, the plant water stuff is pretty exciting because it's a lot of my personal work, like my hands were on that hardware. I did that work. It's up there and it's incredible to see it in space. Honestly, the one that was the most fun and probably the most ridiculous is Nickelodeon sent slime to space in like 2019 and the astronauts had like two hours to just do these demonstrations and they were like sliming each other. [laughs] They had ping-pong paddles they were playing with. They made the biggest mess and got us this incredible imagery. And then from that, Nickelodeon made this children's program where I got to co-host and be the resident scientist and play with kids and try to replicate these experiments on Earth.

The thing that was the most incredible is I asked, like we were watching the video or I would tell the kids, this is what the astronauts did. What do you think happened? Those kids were so intuitive and had really great ideas and were so close to the right answer. They were legit third through 5th graders who were like real scientists. It was the coolest thing to see. It was great. That was my absolute favorite.

Jesselle: So much fun. 

Dawn: That’s great. Would you want to do more experiments with children?

Rihana: Yeah. Kids just have a natural curiosity. So when astronauts were playing with the slime, they had this childlike curiosity that was so exciting. We were so engaged and just like, yeah, do more. They were laughing and playing. It was the exact same thing when you had the kids. Now, when I was playing with the slime, I was approaching it with the scientific and calculated method. It was just not as open and exciting and when you do that with kids, you just learned so much. Plus, we just need more diverse minds in engineering. That's how you innovate.

Jesselle: Always. Well, talk to me about that. What have been your experiences when you worked on more diverse teams? What are the outcomes you get in those situations as opposed to maybe one -- maybe when everyone looks the same periods mimic the sad answer to that question is 

Rihana: Well the sad answer to that question is I don’t know, I've never worked on a diverse team.

Jesselle: So you are.

Rihana: I am the diversity, typically. Right now the lab that I work in, I am the only woman. Right now I am the only person of color. When I worked at PSU, before I worked in the facilities department, which was predominantly older white men, you know, so it is not a common experience. I think the best example -- so I had a lightning talk for the January happy hour that I talked about this, but my example of innovation through diversity was because our plant watering technology is so new, NASA will not let us grow plants in it.

We have to prove that it works before we can put a real plant in. So we have to make plant models. For hydroponics, the thing that we are most interested in is the roots. Like how are the roots going to interact with these channels that we have developed with the water going over them? My advisor called me up last, I don't know, April and was like, how do we do this? Plant roots are really similar to human hair, and we cannot stand human hair to the space station. I don't know why, but you can't. You know, he is like, how do we do this? I don't know. I can't figure it out. I get my hair braided every once in a while, and my answer was, let's just use a weave. .

Dawn: YES!

Jesselle: Done and done. 

Rihana: His answer was like, what is a weave?

[all laughing] 

I had to explain to him all of this information about black women's hairstyles. I had to walk him through what to Google. The whole thing was like but this isn't real? I thought this hair was real.

Dawn: Thank you. 

Rihana: Rihana, did you ever have a weave? Did I not notice when you had a weave? I was like, no you didn't notice. You had no idea. So I opened this man's mind. Like I showed him a whole new world. When I talked to him about it, I was talking to him about it this morning. He's like, I keep getting ads for black women's hair products.

[all laughing] 

And so what I did is ended up braiding these super, super microbraids -- like people would not have braids that tiny but I braided them into plant roots and created these weave plant models that are on the space station right now. They will be used in March. My favorite thing about that whole story is literally the name of the plant models, because everything has an official NASA name, has the word weave in it. There's a large weave, there’s a small weave, there’s a medium weave. [laughing]

Jesselle:  Yes, yes. We Getting that black culture up in NASA. I love this. 

Rihana: Yes, yes. First first time sending weaves to space! 

Jesselle: I love that. Do you feel like a -- I’m feeling like I'm sensing this bridge of the enjoyment that you have shared in terms of working with kids and watching them kind of innovate and being able to potentially influence the next generation of up-and-coming young folks that may really be extremely interested in following someone like yourselves footsteps. It sounds to me like there's a lot of crossover there, maybe for future potential opportunities.

Rihana: Yeah. I 100% believe anyone can be an engineer. An engineer is you solve problems - like that’s your job you have a problem and you solve it. We need artists as engineers to create beautiful products. One of the reasons I'm so successful as I took drama classes all the time. I was a theater nerd in high school and that made it so that I am able to give presentations and talk to people in a way and communicate in this way that most engineers can't. So we need people with this diverse background. And I mean, you just need -- engineering is a set of skills to solve problems that I believe anybody can do. It doesn't matter. I want to convey that message to kids and, you know, may be adults who are considering going into it. It is not easy, it's definitely hard work, but it’s something that 100% I believe everyone can do.

Jesselle: Absolutely. That's so exciting and so fun that you have been able to experience all of these different areas. Tell us a little bit more about your background in arts and drama. I think that people would love to hear about some of the communication things that you may have specifically learned about the kind of impact your ability to be really successful in your space now.

Rihana: When I first started high school, I was really nervous about, you know, wanting to be who I am. My dad really convinced me to take a drama class. He thought that I was a ham at home and that I needed to express myself through the arts. [laughs] So I signed up for this class and what it did is when you go out on stage, like you have to be this person and you have to have this presence. You have to practice at it and be good at it. All it was was this practice, and I would just do it over and over again. I was in so many shows. It just made it so easy for me to be in front of people. It made it so easy for me to communicate and to connect with people because when you are on stage, you have to be able to portray this character that can connect with folks. I am not saying I play a character when I talk to people to connect with them, but you just learn that skill when you are doing it. When I really consider where my success comes from, it's from those acting classes and those plays that I was in because from there I have done keynote speeches for different organizations. I have done a number of conference presentations. I can have a presence in front of people and I can show people not only can an engineer communicate the way that I can but they can also look like me too.

Dawn: That's wonderful. So do you suggest things like acting classes or improv classes for engineers out there that might not be so outgoing?

Rihana: I would. I mean, there are not a lot of people that would believe me with that, but I would definitely. I mean, any arts classes. Another reason I was so successful in creating these plant models and these different items on the space station is not only was I in the theater but I'm also like a craft person. I love working with my hands and making crafts and being creative in that way. So all of my plant models have been really creatively designed and fabricated. You know, my soil test cells were all these skills that I developed. My mom took me to the community center and had me in these craft classes and, you know, 25 years later I am developing these things from the skills that I learned when I was a little kid in elementary school. It's totally interesting. And now one of my favorite things to do is rapid prototyping, which is using a 3D printer to create models using the laser cutter, just creating these things with my hands that have a functional and sometimes beautiful look to them.

Dawn: That's super cool. I was going to go ahead and ask one of the questions from the chat. Aubrey wants to know how do we embrace the power of being unique on teams without feeling tokenized?

Jesselle: I have no idea.

Rihana: I mean, so for me I have had to be comfortable enough in the team to call it out. So I think for a lot of people's experience, at least for me as a woman, I was always the one asked to take notes. I was always the one asked to clean up. I had enough rapport to say things… mmmm no. Are you really going to ask the only woman in the lab to take notes? Is that the look you want? But it took being comfortable with people. You have to find the right team in order to have that comfort level. That's a really hard question.

Jesselle: Well I really appreciate what you said about you have to find the right team, because in my opinion it is up to the environments to be welcoming, to be open, to call you up and say, help me. Then you come up with the best solution ever that is now being used in space. Learn from those things, right? Those teams are going to come back to you when they have problems because you solved their problem. I totally agree. And, you know, you have now created the space where you feel comfortable to say that and to continue to say that and to continue to push those, you know, examples on people.

Rihana: Well, and one thing, it feels really good. These experiments that I will be working on on Friday, I'm nervous because it's going to be the first time I'm doing something. And I'm always nervous the first time I try something, but I feel really prepared. I've done enough experiments but I have been in the environment. I've done the work. I've done the homework. I feel really confident that it is going to go well. That's because I've had to, you know, great opportunities on the team that I am on. It hasn't always been rosy, and it's definitely had its rough spots, but, yeah, having that opportunity to really flex those muscles and, you know, do the work without some of the distractions that you can have has been really pivotal in my success.

Jesselle: I am also -- I am a dancer. So for me the practice, the feeling prepared. It's like that's where it is at. If I feel prepared, I can do it. I know I am going to at least be successful. So I would love to know, I think that there was one more question that came through. How close are we to affordable space tourism? And is that something you have any visibility into? I'm super curious about that.

Rihana: I, honestly, think it will happen in our lifetime, but I do not think it will be very affordable. At least not for a while. Watching the space X rockets that are able to be reused, I mean, it's just getting cheaper and cheaper to send things to space. It's going to be cheaper and cheaper to send people to space. Right now the problem is it's really hard on your body. They don't know enough about what happens to you in space. You know, all of the astronauts that are up there; they give blood regularly. They have all of these different tissue samples and samples of their DNA and all this kind of stuff to study the effects of radiation and how microgravity affects them. So there is not a complete understanding. The people who are astronauts right now, they are in like top physical condition, top mental condition, they go through years of training. So it's going to be a little while before they can figure out ways to get people up to space. And then the thing that is challenging is stuff that you are so we use on Earth - you can't do! You cannot pour water into a pitcher and pour yourself a glass of water. You can do that in space you have to come up with a new method, you know. The toilet sounds like a nightmare in space. So they have not figured out a way to make it family-friendly. You know what I mean? There's so many challenges that I think make it difficult for tourism on a grand scale. I think first what will happen, there's going to be those flights that you can go up into the atmosphere, go up pretty high and then come down. 

Jesselle: See it and then come down 

Rihana: And not be up there for too long.

Jesselle: So interesting. 

Dawn: Do you want to go into space as a tourist or as a scientist?

Rihana: I would love to go to space. But like, I would not go to Mars. [laughs]  No, you are not sending me three years away. One of my friends jokes with me because I said I’d go to the moon, but I don't have the gumption to go to Mars. That's what I would do. I would love to go to space. All of the astronauts talk about this visceral feeling when they look down onto the Earth.

Their love for humanity grows incredibly when you see things from the perspective. That sounds just incredible. Also, I like watching the astronauts. When we were doing our experiments, you see them zooming by the camera and they do these fun spins and goofy things for the camera for us to make us laugh. It's like, that just looks like fun.

Dawn: I love that the scientists have a sense of humor.

Rihana: I think you have to have a sense of humor to be up in a tin can for months at a time. You've got to do something.

Jesselle: I don’t know if yall have.. I’ve sat in.. At OMSI they have one of the little tiny seats that you sit in upside down, the capsules. I think that's the thing for me that has always been shocking is the amount of space. I've lived in a 500 square-foot studio apartment, but I get to leave that every so often if I so choose. But the amount of space that they are confined to is wild. So wild. I am so excited to have heard about all of this. Thank you so much for sharing.  I definitely want to reach out to the audience. We are in the first live episode. We have an extremely awesome guest with us, and I would love to open the floor for some Q&A. I see we have got one here from Mason. So we will start there, but please folks, continue to pop them in and we will ask them as we are able. Is there someone that you look up to and/or inspires you to continually grow in your field?

Rihana: There are. I mean, I am honored to work with tons of scientists. You know, everyone sees the astronauts doing their thing upon the space station, doing the experiments, but there is an incredible team of people. It takes hundreds of people working together to make that work. That is incredibly inspiring. There -- the scientists I work with, especially with the plant watering, they have this incredible dedication. They loved plants more than I think I love anything. It's this motivation that helps me in those times where it is like I'm having trouble writing this paragraph, but then I can think about my Oscar and how much he loves this new soil particulate and what it is going to do for the future of plants in space. And it's like, okay, now I can do this.

Jesselle: Awesome.

Dawn: If it's up to you, would you stay in space after you graduate with your masters?

Rihana: Yes. Honestly, I would stay in space. Unfortunately, there is not much space in the Portland metro area.

Dawn: Why not?! Oh I know why not.. Tell us why not. 

Rihana: It's not yet. Maybe soon. But I would love to stay in space. I don't know if I would want to work for NASA, but I would love to work for one of the many contractors that are working, because in the next couple years the international space station is going to be converted for contractors pretty predominantly it will be a contract-based facility, so there is going to be wild, wacky science coming out of their that is for all kinds of developments for products on Earth.

Jesselle: And all types of people, right?

Rihana: Oh yeah. 

Jesselle: So often the users, right, if this becomes an opportunity formal folks to experiment -- more folks to experiment, it becomes more diverse in that as well. This is a good question that Aubrey asked. Where can we find the best space footage? Is there someone up there with a go Pro 24/7 that we can tune into? Where is the best place to be able to I guess participate in that is what I'm hearing.

Rihana: That's a great question. So NASA puts out videos all the time on YouTube. That's going to be your best space content. The ISS national laboratory, they feature all kinds of experiments that are going on, so I would check there. The Nickelodeon, if you want to see the Nickelodeon video, I will give a plug for that one. If you go to nickcommunity.com/sls - maybe Elizabeth can put that in the chat. You can see that slime footage which is just so funny and so ridiculous.

Dawn: As a spoiler - did you get slimed?

Rihana: I did get slimed, but it is not in the video, unfortunately. It got cut. So I got slimed for my own personal reasons. I got slimed by Nickelodeon.

Jesselle: You've got to. That is like, honestly, a childhood dream come true. You watch all of these people get slimed.

Rihana: I know, it was definitely -- I had a picture of slime poured on my head, and they were like, we were going to come down from three and then they poured on me on one so my reaction is just wooooo. It's very cold and very uncomfortable.

Jesselle: So the reactions are real. All the reactions that we have seen.

Rihana: 100%.

Jesselle: That is so awesome.

Dawn: So what tips do you have for people, like if I think I want to be an engineer or mechanical engineer. Like I already have a bachelor's degree in English or whatever, but what if I wanted to do engineering? What do you recommend as a first step?

Rihana: Yeah so when you take your first 100 level classes, find a group of people that you can develop a community with so that you are -- you know, you study with them every week. They can take notes for you if you are sick. They can turn in your homework if you have to be on the other side of town are you finding that community and that support within your peer group is pivotal. My best grades were from classes where I was in a study group and I felt this obligation to like, we are going to do this together. My homework was always like high points. I always got A's on my tests. That was really important. But then also finding and developing relationships with your professors. I think that is just general college advice that I didn't pay attention to until I was pretty far along in my degree. If your professors know who you are, for one, they’re just connected. They can find -- they can help you find a job if you are an undergrad looking for your first job and you were not able to get an internship. They have research that you can start when you are an undergrad. If they know who you are and know about what you are up to and, you know, something is going on in your life, they are going to be more lenient. In order to be successful in engineering, you have to develop a support system, because you are not going to be good at everything. You need that support from your peers. You need that support from your professors. You need that support from your community.

Jesselle: Big time. I couldn't agree more.

Dawn: I remember everyone telling me when I went to college, they were like, make sure you sit in the front row at least once so you can meet your professor and they can put a face to the name.

Jesselle: Totally, I still have one professor that I am a very close with, and even if it is chatting about something back-and-forth, it is so valuable to have those relationships.

Rihana: I agree.

Jesselle: All right. We got another question here. Let me go ahead and just say it. Are there more women in the science specific roles on the teams you work with? Since you work in both fields, do you have any theories on why there are less women mechanical engineers than men?

Rihana: I feel like there is a stereotype for the type of work that mechanical engineers do. There are a lot more women in civil engineering. I think there's something about the work. It's working with the environment. It's working on taking care of things in a way that I feel like people assume that they belong in that career more. It has also just been historically dominated by men. So when you look at the freshman 101 classes in engineering, the freshman and sophomore classes, they are totally a lot more women, but there is that feeling of like I do not belong. There's not as many professors that look like me, not as many students that look like me in these classes, and they just sort of dissipate as the classes get harder and they feel more isolated. I find that there are a lot of women in the sciences like biology and chemistry. There it is closer to 50/50. Engineering, man, it's a hard place to be because there is just not -- I mean, it's hard to be what you can't see. If you cannot see professors, if you cannot see administrators, if you can't see the people in charge that look like you, then it's hard to think that you can do that.

Dawn: This is our big shout out. Let's hire some people. New hiring practices. Just throwing that in there if you are listening. You have the opportunity to try harder to get new people into your company, your college, your university, your nonprofit. I don't know, your grocery store. 

Rihana: Your educational programs. Yes, absolutely. You have the opportunity to impact largely when you make those types of decisions, right? I couldn't agree more. Good shout out.

Dawn: And not just higher the first person that walks in the door either. Let's try.

Jesselle: Skills are an interesting thing, right? Like you said earlier, I believe anybody can do this. I truly do. But having someone to be confident in you outside sometimes can be externally helpful and I hear that that has been something you've experienced a bit as well. You know, having folks cheer you on from the sidelines, right, as you are going through it.

Rihana: Yeah. I mean, I really needed because, for one, the work is hard but it is also difficult because, you know, there are certain professors and certain people in leadership that don't believe that there are systemic issues that are impacting the students who are coming through the door. Their explanation is, well, they just can't cut it. They are just not good enough. Like that is the mentality, you know. The previous question, why are there more women? Well, I am amending the answer to say that there are people that don't believe that people are capable, that everybody is capable, that women and people of color are capable of being successful in those careers. Those biases come out when you are seeking help. I think about there is one student who I was friends with, and for a lot of reasons a lot of people would flock to me and tell me their horror stories. There was one woman, she went to go get help, you know, on a homework problem like one does, and the professor berated her and, basically, told her that you should know how to do this, you should know better. How did you make it to this class? You’re just trying to ask a question. When you do that, you are never going to ask another question. You will never be able to learn if you can't feel comfortable in that environment. She had gone previously and she had men with her, and he helped them through all of their questions. Didn't matter how fundamental they seemed. Those biases exist. It’s just like, man, it’s rough. If I didn't have people saying, yeah, you belong here despite how you may feel, despite the imposter syndrome, I would have bounced a long time ago.

Jesselle: For sure.

Dawn: I feel like it's even more than imposter syndrome. It's other people putting their opinions on you. How can you not feel like an imposter when other people are kind of forcing that on you?

Rihana: Yeah.

Dawn: I'm glad that you have had people that did the opposite though. It sounds like if that professor -- if you would not put yourself out there and gone all the way to Montana to send balloons to capture the eclipse, that professor probably wouldn’t have looked to you and thought that you should pursue higher education.

Rihana: Yeah.

Dawn: But it’s like you took that opportunity and then you used it.

Rihana: It's really interesting, because when he picked the students for that program, he picked people that did not have prior experience in academic research type deal. I worked at PSU, but I was like a diet engineer in the job that I was in, but it was not academic experience. He picked a team of all women. He was just like, I thought it would be weird to pick a team of all women. I've never done that before. It was so impactful. Like that trip, that whole project, we made him a commemorative bedazzled Frisbee to thank him because of how great that project was. I did that program and that planted the seed of I'm going to maybe get my Masters and see where this goes. Again, like I said, it's like, man this whole week is just an example of those small decisions made by people in power and how that can have a strong lasting impact.

Dawn: What about the other women that were on that team with you. Did any of them pursue grad school? Did you keep up with any of them?

Rihana: One of them decided engineering was not for them and they wanted to go into a creative field, so she is a crafter and makes beautiful crocheted items and soaps and all kinds of stuff.

The other woman went on to be an engineer. I do not keep up with her as much, but she is out there. She started a family and is getting back into engineering.

Dawn: Because you can do both.

Rihana: You can do both - women, they can do it all.

Jesselle: And what a good example of like how you can learn so much from the same experience. Maybe it's that you don't want to do this.

Rihana: That's powerful information.

Dawn: And it's okay. It's good. Follow your passions.

Rihana: Definitely.

Jesselle: This is a good question. It might be too soon to ask, but any aspirations for a doctorate in the space, or are we pausing?

Rihana: None, I am done. Once I have finished this Master's degree, I am not doing a PhD. No. Like I am tired. That work is hard, and it does not pay very much. And I'm ready to move on with the next chapter of my life but I've been associated with Portland State University in some capacity either as a student or an employee or the student and an employee for 10 years. I am done. I’m out. I’m gone. No more. [laughs]

Jesselle: I love it.

Dawn: Congratulations.

Jesselle: When is.. The graduation is upcoming?

Rihana: Yeah, March. The commencement will happen in June and it will probably be a Zoom commencement, which I am all about. I didn't go to my undergraduate graduation. I was not interested in sitting in that packed stadium for four hours to have someone mispronounce my name. I was not interested in that. But Zoom, great. I can click on and click off.

Jesselle: Then I'm done. Go eat some good food and celebrate. Awesome. Well, this has been so wonderful.

Dawn: I think so too. Do you have any other gems that you have not dropped yet that you think you should drop Rihana?

Rihana: I really enjoyed this conversation. It is not very often that I get to talk about my experience and the vulnerable and real about it. You know, people always want to hear the rosy side of how you get to get there. Honestly, I dropped out of college twice. I failed classes. My undergraduate GPA is fine, you know, it got me into my masters program, but it's not a 4.0. The skills that are not traditional engineering skills have been what has made me the most successful. I think that is really important for folks who are interested in that field or interested in doing something new because, I mean, that is where I have been able to innovate. And because I am graduating, I'm also looking for a job. I'm trying to figure out what that job is going to be in the Portland metro area. If anyone wants to hit me up, I am on linked in. Let's talk about it.

Dawn: We will connect you in the show notes, too, so if you find this conversation interesting and want to employ Rihana, get on it fast, because I bet she’s gonna be gobbled up very quickly.

Jesselle: Very quickly.

Rihana: Thank you for that confidence. I'm going to take that and put that into my resume.

Jesselle: Yes, yes. Those skills have been well earned. You have worked for all that is to come. Congratulations to you. This is extremely exciting.

Rihana: Thank you.

Dawn: Congrats. Well, I think we are going to go ahead and close it out. Now that people can see me. This has been so great. I've had such a great time with both of you. I want it to never end, after the pandemic, come over and hang out with me. We will make some food. We've got a couple cookbooks to go through and all. This has been supercool to do live. Remember the cookbooks. We will try to put them in the show notes. Thank you audience. Thank you for the questions. I've really enjoyed throwing in other people's personalities into this conversation. We have Max Ono to thank as the sound engineer, Katie Zink and April Leonard who do the editing of the podcast, and I have Jana Hodgins who will transcribe it so that you can read it later if you’d like. If you want, check out our other podcast. It's called Humanizing Tech Innovators. It’s hosted by Anusha and Ochuko, and they will tell you some amazing stories that will inspire you just as much as this one. Thanks yall! Thank you, PDXWIT, for making a better tech industry. I'm going to stop talking now.

Rihana: Thank you, everybody.

Jesselle: Thank you.

PDXWIT is a 501-c3 nonprofit with the purpose of encouraging women, nonbinary and under representing people to join tech and supporting and empowering them so they stay in tech. Find out more about us at www.prdxwit.org Like this podcast? Subscribe! And like us on your favorite podcast platform. Want to give us feedback? Contact us at podcast@pdxwit.org to help us improve and ensure you learn and grow from the stories you hear on Humanizing Tech.