Ochuko Akpovbovbo: Entrepreneurial enthusiasm
Get inspired to make a difference with Ochuko Akpovbovbo, a talented student and entrepreneur, who joins us to share her passion for tech, startups, and making capital accessible for women of color. She shows us the power of being involved in the community through her work with Girls Inc., the Portland Incubator Project (PIE), and PDXWIT.
Ochuko reminds us about the importance of staying connected through community building, being willing to talk about hard things while maintaining respect for one another, how race informed her experience since coming to North America, and what ideal representation looks like.
Transcript
Introduction: Welcome to Breaking The Glass Ceiling, a PDXWIT podcast. I'm Megan Bigelow, the founder of PDXWIT. We interview people to dig below the surface of their achievements and challenges, showcasing the story behind the story. We believe that focusing on the person and humanizing their lived experiences will help us shape the future of tech.
This season of Breaking The Glass Ceiling is brought to you by Kiva. Kiva is an international nonprofit working to expand financial access to help underserved communities thrive. 100% of every dollar you lend on Kiva goes to funding loans. By lending as little as $25, you can be a part of the solution and make a real difference in someone’s life. More than 80% of the borrowers Kiva serves around the world are women. Learn more at kiva.org.
Kimberly Embry: Jello everybody. And welcome back to breaking the glass ceiling. This is Kimberly Embry - she /her
Dawn Mott:
And I'm Dawn Mott. Also she/her. Kimberly, who do we have with us today?
Kimberly:
Today we have Ochuko Akpovbovbo.
Dawn: Oh, nice name.
Kimberly: Yes. Yes. Can you tell us about Ochuko?
Dawn: Yeah, I'd love to, she has a student at Lewis and Clark college here in Portland. She is their president of their investments club and the entrepreneurs club.
Kimberly: She is an impressive young woman and had a ton of great energy. And we hope that you enjoy this episode as much as we did.
Kimberly: A P O W O W.. Not that I'm going to like, say it 5 million times, but I'm trying to get it right.
Dawn: It's good.
Kimberly: We're going to release that, right?
Dawn: Maybe.
Kimberly: I think we should, cause it’s a good conversation.
Dawn: Max surprises us sometimes.
Kimberly: Well, you know, it's like when you have a name, right? Or like, we go to a different country and you like, travel and everyone's like, how the hell do you pronounce your name?
Dawn: Yeah.
Kimberly: You know, like people are uncomfortable having that kind of conversation. People are uncomfortable to even ask someone if they forgot their name, what the heck your name is?
Dawn: They’re like, Oh, no, I can't ask.
Kimberly Embry: Right. Cause they’ll get offended, but it's like, no, you should like learn people's names and pronounce them.
Ochuko Akpovbovbo: Yeah. It's weird because in classes, so the first semester, or the first class in every semester you have professors and my name starts with an A so it's kind of always at the top and you just see them, like with the paper, just standing there and I'm like, Oh, this is me. Like everyone who knows me knows it's Ochuko’s name. And I'm like, hi, just like Ochuko. It's like, okay. Okay, cool. And most, and it's funny cause back home, people didn't know how to say it either. So like all my life, like everyone just kind of like, I don't know what to do with this, so it's fine.
Kimberly: So it's Ochuko Akpovbovbo.
Ochuko: Yeah.
Kimberly: Akpovbovbo. We're getting, we're putting this in there.
Ochuko: Awesome.
Kimberly: Thank you. Everyone's going to know now. No one will have an excuse.
Ochuko: Yeah, that's how to say it.
[All laughing]
Kimberly: So thank you for joining us today
Ochuko: Thank you for having me.
Kimberly: It's great to have you here. I know no one can see, but you're wearing this like lovely mustard, knitted sweater and cute like ripped jeans and white sneakers. And we both have like woven bracelets on.
Dawn: I just have a Fitbit.
Kimberly: But you're like the everyday uniform chic.
Dawn: Well, I like to be a cartoon character. So I like to wear the same thing everyday.
Ochuko: I love it.
[All laughing]
Kimberly: I do too though. I really, I love to wear like cream or tan on top all the time, which I know no one cares, but that's what Dawn is wearing right now. A turtleneck that is of that shade and like black gray jeans, as I am too.
Ochuko: I mean, I'm here for that, right? Like define your style and like let it be a Dawn thing.
Kimberly: Yes. Yes.
Dawn: I’ll take it. I'll do it.
[All laughing]
Kimberly: Yeah. So thank you for being with us here today.
Ochuko: I'm happy to be here.
Kimberly: We're excited to have you on, I know there's a lot to chat about so we can get into it. So if you could give our listeners a quick intro to you, and then we can kind of dive into that conversation and get into details deeper.
Ochuko: Alright, cool. I've been in a lot of interviews I've been doing, like for jobs, I've been doing a lot of quick insurance…
Kimberly: Elevator pitch? Nice, let's hear it.
Ochuko: So I'm a junior right now at Lewis and Clark college. Economics major, entrepreneurship minor, maybe if I can squeeze that in there. And I PDXWIT, I'm into tech, startups, venture capital. I sort of geek out on that stuff. And a lot of my work in school, in the community is based around that - based around giving opportunities for younger people or minorities to have an input in what happens in tech and in the venture space here. And so that's super big. That's been really exciting for me. So the last two years have been sort of me navigating that space and seeing what's happening in Portland, what's happening in my school and how people of my generation can really put their weight on how decisions are made and how the future is sort of formed by these older people.
Kimberly: And how did you get into that? Or like what inspired you?
Ochuko: Oh, okay. So most of my life, I thought I was going to go into finance or something and because it was something I was good at and it made sense and I would make money and whatever. And then, last year I participated in this entrepreneurship program called Winterim at Lewis and Clark college. And I think before that I had been sort of struggling with the whole finance thing because it was like, oh yeah, like I'm good with numbers and data and stuff, but I, it's not giving me a creative outlet. I couldn't do anything with that creative part of me. And I was like, Oh, well I guess like people just have jobs they don't like so I was going to do it.
Kimberly: It’s true.
[All laughing]
Dawn: It doesn't have to be.
Kimberly: Yeah, no, it doesn't have to be.
Ochuko: And then I found this like program and all these entrepreneurs came and talked to us and all these people from Portland and it was super cool. And I thought of entrepreneurship as that, framework for giving me permission to do all of it. I could use my really analytic side and I could use my creative setting and just do whatever. And it was kind of like this light bulb went off in my head and I was really eager to do something with everything I learned. And, you know, I guess the whole thing with entrepreneurship is finding a problem and solving it. And the one that I picked was that in my school, there was really low engagement in terms of events for students. And there wasn't really a community field, which is a big deal to me because I'm not from here.
And so my school is really my home. And so I really wanted to change that. And so I worked with two other students to create this app that allowed everyone to see what everyone was going for on campus and all the events and stuff. And so I planned out the whole summer and then... we brought other students on board, we got funding. It was really cool. And so that was how I got into tech because from learning how to work, create an app, how to, you know, sell it to people, how to raise funds. It was, I just had to teach myself the whole summer. And so that was pretty much all I did for three months and it was cool. I would listen to podcasts and we had all these articles. I was like, this is, it's kind of dope there's a lot of cool stuff happening here. And ever since then, I've just been kind of nerding out on that stuff and getting really excited and trying to get everyone else really excited about it as well.
Kimberly: That’s awesome. And I think my limited experience of talking to younger people and including young students, so middle school, high school, there's always this idea and not even just like younger people, but there's always just this idea of people being in tech that you have to…
Dawn: Be a developer
Kimberly: Yeah or like, go into computer science, but that's totally not true. And like in your case…
Ochuko: It’s not true at all. Yeah. I'm taking this class right now. It's this digital art class and you get to create art with code and it's super cool and I'm doing it. I was like, okay, I don't want to do this. I'm glad I know I don't have to do this. And I think if you understand how it works and I guess the way tech is used now is just to solve problems, right? And so if you understand how, the framework for solving problems work, what you need, what the user interface should look like, what people connect with and what works and what doesn't, and you can educate yourself on that. And I guess it really forces at least me to form partnerships and to learn how to speak the language without actually knowing how to do the thing. And I think in a world where, I mean, entrepreneurship is also all about collaboration. And so you collaborate with people who can do things that you can't.
Kimberly: Right.
Ochuko: And so, and there's so many parts of tech, like marketing and sales and all that cool stuff that people don't think about. And so, yeah, tech is really broad and it's honestly like pretty much everything right now. And so saying you’re going into tech could mean anything because everything is tech, in my opinion.
Dawn: I think that’s really important to mention, because going through to PDXWIT events or trying to invite people out and I'll hear like, I'm not technical, like I don't belong. But I mean, really you do, if you're in sales or marketing or even HR, like at a tech company it's important to know the broader culture and feel included.
Kimberly: There are so many moving parts to making something successful. It's not always all about engineers. Sorry Max!
Dawn: No, it may be a little bit boring if it were only about engineers.
Kimberly: [laughing] I know what you're saying, I was just joking. Sorry to go off on a tangent… So you mentioned that community is important to you…
Dawn: Community building, too.
Kimberly: Community building, yeah. And as someone that you had mentioned that is not from here, you know, school for you is like your home base. So if you could also like go into… Where are you from? I think you had mentioned like you've lived in multiple countries and then also what prompted your move, what's that story of your move to Portland?
Ochuko: Oh, great. So I love this story. So I was born in Nigeria, in Lagos with a great country in West Africa. If you don't know anything about it, I love it. And you know, it was very much community based in that, like for me home was really important to me. And treasure was really important to me. I knew my neighbors and I guess part of African culture is just really being close to people and sharing a lot of things. And you know, your extended family being really close to you and all of that. And so I grew up with that knowledge of this is my home base, community means a lot to me, it's good to be connected with people and everything's great. But I also knew that I wanted to leave because it was just one place and I would watch American TV all the time. I was like, okay, I'm going to go here. This is where cool stuff happens.
Kimberly: What would you watch?
Ochuko: I don't know, like a lot of Disney, I watched Emus a lot and I thought they were so cool.
[All laughing]
Ochuko: And my mom hated it. She was like, what are you watching? And I’m like “I am going to go there someday!” She’s like OK, Ochuko.
[All laughing]
Ochuko:
And so when I was 16, I was graduating high school and all my friends were going to England, cause I went to a British school in Nigeria. But we couldn't afford that. And it was like, okay, Ochuko, are you going to stay? And I was like, that's not true, I'm not going to stay.
[All laughing]
Ochuko: And so my mom kind of, and I kind of found a way to, I got a scholarship to attend this really cool international school in Canada. And you know, that was my first time moving away from home. I was 16. I was going to this place where no one in my family had ever been to before. And I was, yeah, it's going to be perfect. And I missed my flight the first time I went there and I cried. I was like, Ochuko you can still get there. I was like, okay, that's cool.
[Laughing]
Ochuko: And it was this high school of 200 kids from 150 countries.
Dawn: Wow.
Ochuko:
And so it was a lot of learning and a lot of growing, you know, and it was just amazing. And I'm so happy that in those formative years of my teenage life, I got to be in a place that was so diverse. And we were so many and sooo different, but we were all super close. We would have these village meetings all the time and all these conversations and we would talk about hard stuff because we had friends that were in countries that were in conflict at that point.
And so I just learned a lot and realized that, Oh, we can all be different and have different opinions and religions and political thoughts and stuff. But at the end of the day, we're all people, if we can really like brave up to have those conversations, we could get past them, or at least try to work our way through them for the most part. And so I came to Portland because I'd always want it to come to America. And so Canada was like that middle stop.
Dawn: Sorry, Canada.
Ochuko: [laughing] Yeah, the less cool, less problematic America, but yeah.
[All laughing]
Ochuko: And I wanted to go to California cause it was really sunny, but I didn't get enough financial aid to go to the schools I wanted to go to and so Lewis and Clark was cute. It looked really cute on the website. I didn't know it was raining.
Dawn: Oh, you didn’t know about the weather..
Ochuko: I did not know about that!
Dawn: You saw it in summer.
Kimberly: Close enough to California.
Ochuko: I'm like, it's just like, it's going to be the same. It's probably just a bit less popular. And so I came here and it was like a huge culture shock for me. I think even more so than moving to Canada, which was weird becauseCanada, America, and especially Portland and Victoria, where I lived, not that different.
Kimberly: Right.
Ochuko: But for some reason, I think it was the place I was in, in Portland that made it seem like, Oh, like, you know, you're not all connected and you're not all doing things together. And that kind of shocked me. And for the first two years when I wasn't doing anything about it, it was not a very great time, but you know, we're past that now. And I love my school.
Kimberly:
Yeah. You've certainly created a solution for sure.
Dawn: I love that though. I mean, we live in a globalized society now whether people, like, I think a lot of people acknowledge that, but don't fully accept that.
Kimberly: Yeah and the Internet.
Dawn: Yeah. Yeah. But it's like, we have access to so much information and like people in connection and when you are a teenager or like during those formative years, I think it's awesome that you were able to experience something where you do have so many different kinds of people that are like all together in one place, but that commonality of, well, we're still going to build a community is super important.
Ochuko: It was great. And I think it was really weird because everyone in my school is either from California or Portland, you know, except with a few exceptions. And so I thought you’re all similar, you’re all from the same place, we're all gonna get along fine because there's less outward differences between us and so it was really interesting to see how that was not the case. And you would think because it's like all pretty much the same culture and stuff, so yeah.
Dawn: Yeah. But I think our culture is almost to keep us separate and insular, focused on self, which makes it hard to form a community, you know?
Kimberly: Yeah. I mean, I'm all for the whole, like, you know, do whatever serves you, but at the same time, there's kind of, you have to acknowledge, well that will cut you off from people. Or you will be cutting people off from you or run into the risk of putting everyone into a box.
Dawn: Yeah.
Kimberly: If they have like one thing that you disagree with and it's like, okay, I'm not going to talk to you anymore. I’m not going be friends with you anymore, which really sucks.
Ochuko: It's a very American thing in my experience
Kimberly: Really?
Ochuko: Yeah. Cause I also lived in Scotland since I've been here for the holidays, cause my part of my family lives there. And so it was four different countries that have been in, very different cultures and very different ways of handling disagreements and having different opinions. And I think, I was not really expecting to see that when I came here, I don't know why. I probably just like didn't know that much as much about America as I thought I would be. But it's definitely something that I wish people knew - it doesn't have to be like that. I don't think it has to be like, if you disagree with me on one thing, we can’t talk because then like you're not communicating.
Kimberly: Yeah.
Ochuko: And, that’s a huge problem.
Kimberly: Yeah. Definitely like your community doesn't have to be purely people that 100% agree with you.
Ochuko: Yeah. That's super problematic.
And kind of going back to the tech thing, I think that's why it's really important to have people who are not like technical or thinking a certain way part of tech companies, because you want to make things that are usable by people. You want to have people who think in different ways. And so when you talk about diversity, it's not just, maybe racial diversity or ethnic diversity or men and women, like all these other things, but you also want people who think differently than you because then whatever you create, whatever you make, a lot of people will be able to benefit from that.
Kimberly: Right. Right.
Dawn: What was your experience like working with your team, making that app?
Ochuko:
It was great. Cause these two nerdy white dudes who I love so much, and then they're both introverts and just wanting to like do the thing. And then there's me, who's I guess extroverted presenting but I'm actually an introvert and kind of more creative thinking and less technical on actually doing the thing. And so they would have different ideas of how things should look, for example, like when you open the app, like, Oh, this should go here and people will know that it's here because obviously it's here and I'm like, no, they're not going to know, not everyone thinks in this way as you do. And you know, there's this whole thing of like, we have this idea of what we think the problem is and so let's make it. And so I had to really push for like, no, let's talk to everyone and see what they actually want.
And you know, about what events should we prioritize? What shouldn’t be? Who should we talk to? Who shouldn't we talk to? And so it was just very interesting seeing how we thought about things very differently, but at the end of the day, we're able to talk and really respect each other's opinions and learn from them because there are times when I was wrong and then you just change it. And I think the whole thing is just like fail fast and learn and be nice about it when you're working with each other. So I think we're really able to establish that respect between us and we all knew that we were really good at what the other person did. And so would trust their opinions. And even if we're challenging them, you would do that with respect.
Dawn: So young to be so mature.
Kimberly: I know! You're older than me... Just kidding, so we should definitely get into this deeper, but before we do that, how did you get involved with PDXWIT?
Ochuko: Oh, it was through Hazel and Elizabeth actually. So last summer while I was also working on this app, I was thinking a lot about home. I had just, like I said, discovered entrepreneurship. And I was like, yo, like I want to create something where, you know, other people can be involved in this, people my age. And so I had this whole idea of what I wanted to do. And so I started looking up nonprofits in the area who deal with women in tech and then I found PDXWIT. And then I wrote this email to Hazel and Elizabeth, I don't even know what I said, I was like, “Talk to me, I have this idea. You guys are great. I want to know what you do.”
And I did not expect them to reply because I was a sophomore or something at that point in this school that's like on the Hill or something and they're out here doing amazing things, but they replied to me, they replied to my email and we facetimed. I was back home in Nigeria at that point. And they were so nice and they helped me and they talked me through my ideas and they told me what worked, what didn't work. They told me the story about PDXWIT. They were just really nice to me. And they were really amazing and supportive. And then, you know what I was planning to do, I haven't done it yet, but they were like, when you come back to Portland, come meet us, come say hi to us and come be involved with PDXWIT, and I did that. And Hazel was my mentor, she is amazing. She's really exposed me to a community here in Portland who allowed me to meet some amazing people.
And I think when you are alone in a place and you're young, it's hard to feel… and everyone, for example, is going home for winter break or something... It's hard to feel grounded in a place that you don't have history in at all. And so meeting people who actually care how you are and you know, Hazel just asked me like, how are you? Like let’s meet and stuff. That was just really nice.
Kimberly: Yeah.
Ochuko: You know, and meeting people in PDXWIT, I've not had a single bad experience since I've been there. Everyone has been so supportive of me, of each other, of everyone's ideas. And every time I come now, I always bring a friend with me because I'm really excited to see people my age getting involved with the community more. And so that's kind of how I got involved. Just to be a part of what you guys are building here, which is really amazing stuff.
Kimberly: That’s awesome. And connections are really important in any industry. I feel like sometimes those are the things that actually get you a job.
Ochuko: Yeah.
Kimberly: Yeah, sometimes. And, also you are one of the recipients for the scholarship. Right?
Ochuko: Yeah.
Kimberly: Right. Can you tell us about that? The PDXWIT scholarship.
Ochuko: Yeah. All comes down to Hazel cause she's great. So I'd been seeing it, I guess, on the, on your newsletters. And I was like, this sounds so cool. But at that point I had not been really heavily involved with PDXWIT yet. I just come back and I was like, darn I don't know if I could apply to this Hazel because everyone, who's applying probably has a job and it's probably super important to them and I'm a student and obviously I want to do this so I can learn more about what I want to go into and because I don't have any sort of technical major. And so if I was going to go into tech I wanted to have more than just an economics degree. I wanted to come in with like, I've been to this, I know that and stuff. And she was like, you know, just do it. You're going to be great. Just apply and be humble and tell your story and it's going to be fine. And so literally the day before the deadline, I was like, Ochuko just do it. You know, I think that's just been my thing all the time, just do it. And so I did and I applied and I just prayed about it and put it out in my mind. And then I got it. And I was like, Oh, this is great. And so now I'm going to get to go to Vegas to attend the Adobe Digital Marketing Summit, which I'm so excited about. It looks really cool. I've never been to Vegas before. And so..
Kimberly: Are you 21?
Ochuko: I am, I just turned.
Dawn: Right on time!
[All laughing]
Ochuko: So it’s going to be a good time. I'm excited.
Kimberly: I'm excited for you. Actually, do you ever review or like to sign up to review the submissions for the scholarships?
Dawn: I haven't yet. I was on the awards committee.
Kimberly: Ohhhh.
Dawn: But, maybe the scholarship sometime soon.
Kimberly: I remember yours.
Ochuko: Really?
Kimberly: Yeah.
Ochuko: Cool.
Kimberly: I chose yours. Not that like, I'm the only singular person that..
Dawn: She's saying that you should thank her now.
[All laughing]
Kimberly: [laughing] That is not what I'm saying, but I remember reading yours.
Ochuko: That's awesome. Cool.
Kimberly: I think at least from I've only done it like twice. But I think he might've been like the first and we don't see all of the submissions, we're only assigned so many. But I think yours might've been the first like student submission.
Ochuko: Well, that's great. I hope more students apply. I think a lot of students maybe don't know.
Kimberly: Yeah.
Ochuko: And I mean, if I didn't know Hazel, I probably would have been discouraged about applying. And so I think my whole thing now is being like, you guys get out into Portland, come and apply and get into this community. And so that's like a huge thing for me. So yeah.
Dawn: Thank you for doing that
Kimberly: Seriously.
Dawn: You can't let self doubt hold you back or be unsure that you're ready. If you feel like you're ready just go for it. Like you did, then you get to go to Vegas when you're 21.
Ochuko: Exciting right?
Dawn: Party. [laughing] Oh no. We’re going to go to a conference.
Ochuko: A conference! What are you talking about?
Dawn: We’re going to be making connections..
Kimberly: Business and party. You do both.
Dawn: You do both.
Kimberly: Oh gosh, at 21 you can get hung over. You're not even hung over.
Ochuko: No…
Kimberly: I feel like I used to just stay up all night for like days, like whatever!
Dawn: [laughing] Good times.
Kimberly: It's like, I can still do all the things.
Dawn: My English class was Saturday morning, 9:00 AM.
Kimberly: That was great. Stay out still Friday night. Oh gosh. Yeah. And then somehow it all…
Dawn: It all works out somehow.
Kimberly: Yeah. And then it all goes downhill.
Ochuko: No it goes uphill, I mean like Boulder uphill
Kimberly: Oh gosh yeah uphill in so many ways, but I'm talking about downhill and handling alcohol and lack of sleep. No.. number one is sleep. If I don't get the sleep, I'm not doing it.
Dawn: How many hours do you like to sleep?
Ochuko: Oh, I sleep like six hours, but I nap. I'm a napper. Oh my gosh. 20 minutes. I'm in my room napping. I'm always trying to find time in my schedule to nap. And it's so weird cause like I have this thing where I think like when I was like six or something, my mom would be like, go nap. And I just think it was a punishment. Why, why, why? Sleeping is so nice.
Kimberly: She's like, I'm trying to get alone time, can you go to sleep?
Ochuko: Yeah. It's just, I don't know. I want to reclaim all those childhood naps I did not take and like fit them into my life. Yeah. Sleeping is just like a beautiful thing.
Kimberly: Yeah. I'm an eight outer, eight outer? Eight hour.
Dawn: I like my eight hours..wWhen I can get it. REM sleep is like 90 minutes. So I actually used to like really, really do that and do either six hours or seven and a half. And if I had an exceptionally busy night, four and a half and I would still be solid the next day. I don't know about now, gosh.
Ochuko: I don't know why bodys be like that, at a certain point and be like, we're not helping you anymore.
[All laughing]
Dawn: It’s like no, no. We’ll help your brain and all that finally fuse together all the way, but everything else...
Ochuko: Everything else is going downhill [laughing]
Kimberly: Everything else going downhill [laughing]
Ochuko: I’m so sorry. Wow. That sucks. Yeah I'm definitely going to milk my youth for all it's worth while I still have it.
Dawn: Yes, so what are you doing with all of your energy right now?
Ochuko: Ooh, what am I doing? Okay. So the app just about launched, which is great. And so right now, I guess we're really focusing on that really getting a lot of user feedback and trying to build out the next iteration.
Dawn: What is it called?
Ochuko: It's called the bridge app and it's like super significant cause our school has this whole thing with bridges and all that stuff so it makes sense in the context that I'm living. And adding more people to the team, building out a proper structure, incorporating. And so there's all that stuff. And then obviously working on getting internships for the summer, something I'm super excited about, fingers crossed, and then volunteering with PDXWIT, and with Girls Inc as well, which is something I'm really excited about.
Dawn: What is Girls Inc.?
Ochuko: Oh yeah, so girls inc is this amazing nonprofit. They have their headquarters for Northwest here in Portland and they just help young women. So in high school, middle school, that age range really teaches them about self awareness with all things, being a young woman. So career wise, personal health, relationships, all of that stuff. And it's great, whole female empowerment. It's amazing. And I'm on the volunteer action committee and so we help plan events. They have the part of the purse, which is a fun event that's happening in April, and so we're working on that right now and just doing a bunch of things to get the community really engaged with what you're doing and support young girls here. And it's really cool. I like it a lot.
Kimberly: That's awesome.
Ochuko: Yeah. And also, I don't know if you guys know pie, but it's called Portland Incubator Experiment. It's a startup incubator here in Portland. And so on the weekends I work with two startups there called Nimble and Golden Hour. And it's really cool because all the startups in the incubator right now are people of color. And so the founders are all people of color. And so it's great to see them on their journey and to help them where I can. I mean, obviously school and then work because I've got to pay for school, because it’s not cheap.
Kimberly: College isn't free.
Ochuko: It's not free.
Dawn: College is not accessible.
Ochuko: Yeah. It's a whole thing. But yeah, that's what I do. It's what I'm working on right now. And this other product that I just started with other women here kind of opening up a discussion about accessibility to capital for women of color.
Dawn: Ooh tell us more about this.
Ochuko: Yeah. So it's just something that we're just in the ideating stages of. And I've been in this journey of really digging into how do you start a company? What are the stats behind that? You see that basically like 1% of venture money goes to women of color founders and that is not great at all.
Dawn: Why is that?
Ochuko: Well, because everyone who makes a decision is an old white man..
Dawn: The usual reason.
Ochuko: I think in life with people you give money to people you believe in, in a way like, Oh, I see myself in you.
Dawn: Yeah, exactly. It's that they see themselves.
Ochuko: Yeah, they don't see themselves in me. [Laughing] I'm opening up that conversation of yo, how is that working out in Portland, for these people, making these decisions and who gets favored by it and what can we actually do? So I think something I see here and I guess it's really great hearted or whatever it is there's a lot of talk and there's a lot of discussion and panels about stuff. And I think just the way my brain works, I'm like, okay, so what can we do? And I think in America and in Portland, there's just a lot of conversation, but not a lot of initiatives that I see really going toward. There's some that are really, some people do stuff, but just like a whole lot of talk.
Dawn: More talk than action.
Ochuko: And so I'm like, okay, like I'm tired of hearing D- I, D - I this, you know, and being on a panel talking about how I'm black, like that's cool. Yeah. I guess y'all know I'm black…
Dawn: Spoiler alert - I’m black. [Laughing]
Ochuko: If you didn’t know.. [Laughing] and just, what can we do? What can we do to help these people? Because I mean, we can talk about empowering women all we want, empowering people of color, but especially now, like people want to create things and it's gonna kind of suck if we can't, because people don't believe in what we're doing or because we don't have the stats to back us up. And because, I don't know, because of people's prejudice and I really want to see how we can talk about that. And I think Portland is a great place to have that initiative because people really do want to help and really do want to change things. And so why not?
Dawn: You're going to guide them into it.
Ochuko: Yeah. I'm going to try, like, listen to me.
Kimberly: Yeah, definitely. You were on a panel and you had mentioned something when you briefly brought that up of people asking you, or maybe not outright right? Cause someone's not gonna be like, Hey, what's the black experience?
Ochuko: Oh, they do, they literally do.
Kimberly: Oh my gosh, what is wrong with people?
Dawn: Yeah, it’s fun.
Kimberly: Really?
Ochuko: Yeah. It's like, they don't ask you about the Asian experience?
Kimberly: You know, to be honest, like it's been a while, like in the Bay area they did, but I haven't actually gotten that here in Portland.
Dawn: Maybe people are unsure of what you are.
Kimberly: I think that's what it is.
Dawn: They're like, tell us about racial ambiguity… [All laughing]
Kimberly: Yeah maybe that's what it is. I don't know. But I mean, regardless, I think it's just a… a lot of things can happen and change and grow over a short amount of time. And granted, like maybe it doesn't grow or change at the rate that we would all like it to. But I think I still sometimes find it surprising being in a progressive city and you get people that kind of asked that. And I know the intention is not mean-spirited or anything like that, but I think my expectation is people would be a little bit more thoughtful of the way they're like words impact.
Dawn: Yeah. You could just ask Google that question.
Ochuko: It's true.
Kimberly: Besides like a human being.
Dawn: Yeah. Especially if you're not like a close friend. So what panel you on, if you want to tell us about that and what did you talk about?
Ochuko: Yeah so it was just like one of my school, I guess. And just like, not even limited to panels, just people asking me like, Oh, in Portland? Or in America? And the America one is weird cause I've been here for three years - I did not even know. And so I think like backtracking a bit for me, I grew up in a place in Nigeria where everyone was black and so being black was not a thing. It was just not a part of my core identity in any way, because it's like, if everyone's black, then it doesn't matter that you're black, you know? And so I didn't grow up thinking I'm a strong black woman or like, I am a black woman and it mattered. I was just like me...
Dawn: I'm a strong woman, that must have been amazing.
Ochuko: Like all these amazing other qualifiers. So other things about who I was mattered more. Then fast forward to moving to Canada when I was 16, like it mattered, you know, it was a core part of my identity now because it made me very different. Like you think Portland is white [Laughs] Victoria is so white. [All laughing] So it was just like a huge part of who I was and me and my friends would joke about that anytime we'd go home and we'd come back with like, Oh, I'm black now it's back. Because you know, it only matters when it's different, I guess. And so I guess people for a lot of African Americans, for example, they grew up having that identity and learning to grow with it in some ways, but for me it was just like, I was 16 and then it was suddenly there and it mattered.
And it was all anyone wanted to talk about. Everyone would have my opinion on something based on what I looked like and my experience based on this. And I think I'd never really learned to see my interactions with people through the lens of race, if that makes sense. And so if something would happen to me, I'd never think, does it have anything to do with the fact that I'm black? I would just think did I do something? What happened, you know? And so it just took me a while to have that thing, if that makes sense, that reminds you that you're different. And I don't know, it was just really weird. And so when people would ask me what is the black experience? Or like, how do you feel? I didn't understand because, you know, I grew up in a place where your experience was your experience not because you're black. And so I still have that.
Dawn: Right.
Ochuko: I'm just kind of like, this is how I feel. And yes, obviously, like I look this way, but it goes through a bunch of filters based on my culture and my emotions and my personality and my upbringing, all that stuff. And so it didn't really make any sense to me to answer that question.
Kimberly: Right.
Ochuko: And also, because I think people always assume black people are super united in their opinions on everything, of any small thing, like, you know, hair braiding or cultural appropriation or using certain words, or like do we all agree on something? And there's some big stuff that we all agree about, but there are other small stuff with identity that I don't know, for example, back home, if someone is biracial, they're white. Here, they're black. And so it took me a while to like expand my definition of what blackness even meant. And so if I could tell that you are biracial, I'd say you're black, but if I couldn't tell if you looked like you might not be, then you just weren't in my head. And so like having to navigate that. And so to ask me what that experience is like, I don't even know all the people that count as being black in this place and so how do you want me to explain that?
Dawn: Right.
Ochuko: So I think the African American experience is very unique and different from the African experience. You know? And so how I navigate being here is more how I navigate being here as an African person. And that is American culture, African culture are very different, regardless of the fact that you have the same, like, like racial ethnicity or whatever. And so to ask me to like use my opinions, to represent people who, I don't know a hundred percent know every detail of their history. I haven't been here for 21 years. It's just in my opinion, unacceptable. Because the way I see things is not the way they see things, because I haven't been through what they've been through. They haven't seen what I've seen. They haven't seen this other great life that doesn't have to do with racism and all that stuff. And so, you know, anytime people ask me that I would have this thing where I was like, this is my opinion, but then this is probably the opinion I should tell them. And I think a lot of black people feel that as well, because,there seems to be like this black Twitter, for example, in this one big voice saying this is what the black community thinks, but I don't think that's actually a true or natural, like me and my black friends argue over stuff sometimes.
Like, is it okay for people to do this or not? And even asking that question, I didn't ask myself these questions for a long time because it didn't matter to me. You know? And it matters like, for example, I didn't understand for a while why it was not okay for white people to do braids, I just didn't get it. Cause I did not know the history in America. I just saw it as like, Oh, like you can do it. I do it. I wear braids. It's fine. Like whatever. And so if you'd asked me at that point to give the black opinion, what would I have said without knowing the context and stuff? And so I think there's just a lot of complexity within that. And just knowing that a lot of time doesn't just have to do with the fact that you're black, it has to do with where are you coming from - What is your history? What is your culture? What is like your thought process behind things? And so asking one person to speak on behalf of a lot of people, that;s hard stuff and that's not fair.
Dawn: It limits everybody. Like it limits your ability to truly share what your personal experience is because there is that pressure of, well, they're asking me to speak for a community, but then it's also very limiting for the people that are asking because it's like you can't base your opinion or like based your perspective on the experience of a singular person.
Ochuko: Yeah. I mean, I see people argue with me and they're like, no, you're wrong cause that one black friend of mine told me this and that's the one I'm going to listen to. [Laughing]
Dawn: Right. You get to choose which opinion is the one…
Ochuko: And just, yeah, it's just a lot, I don't know. It's not a.. I think that conversation really has to be changed. I think it's just a weird thing also in the media, and I think what really frustrated me also coming here is every story that was about a black person was so much about the fact that they were black. And I found that really annoying because again, like growing up, I didn't, my blackness was not this thing, that was just a thing, you know? And so now I always have to talk about that. And if someone was probably to write a book about me, probably half the book would be just Ochuko speaking out against her race.
Dawn: Right.
Ochuko: You know, and that's not how my life is. And I just wish there were more stories about black people that weren't so heavily about their being black or more narratives about that, because there's just so much other stuff as well. You know? And so I don't know, it was just like a weird thing for me where I'm like, this is a weird country. [Laughing] It’s so intense.
Kimberly: Portland's weird.
Dawn: The whole country’s pretty weird.
[All laughing]
Kimberly: It's true. And it seems to like for a lot of I hate using the term now, like underrepresented, but you know, for a lot of you know, groups that are not white, it seems like too, whenever you have a platform to use your voice or whenever some story is covered, it's always on this spectrum of like someone did this amazing, amazing thing, or someone did this terrible thing. And during our pre-call for this episode, you had mentioned the topic of black excellence and, and also this perspective of why it's limiting, right? Like why are there only those two sides of the spectrum? Like those stories told and highlighted versus like everything else in the middle, like this collection, which of course growing up, like here in the States and like, as you've seen, like also watching American shows, I think it's like only now that we're, we're getting more stories like real life stories..
Dawn: Like everyday stories.
Kimberly: Right, right. But white folk have had that for a long time.
Dawn: So, tell us about that.
Ochuko: Yeah. I think also that sort of goes into the whole thing of black stories about black people that are still heavily on the fact that they're black, you know? And so that kind of goes to the fact that it's either really terrible,
Dawn: A tragedy.
Ochuko: And just like a tragedy and all this bad stuff, or it's like, great. And they overcame their blackness to do this great thing. And I know we're going to call it like black excellence or whatever. And that is often by the standards that white people have put on what excellence means of what success means and all that stuff. And it puts a lot of pressure, because you know it's only going to matter to the rest of the world if whatever you do is truly spectacular. And then everyone can point to you and say, Oh, this is this amazing black person who did this amazing thing.
And one of the questions for the PDXWIT scholarship is talking about what diversity means to you in something you don't want to introduce to the conversation. And I was talking about how I felt that for me, I'm going to feel like we've reached true equality and true representation when you don't have to be a spectacular black woman or absolutely, mind-blowingly amazing in every single way to have a seat at the table. I want the ordinary black women, like, and unspectacular ones to be represented and to be there. Like, let that just let it be enough, you know, because you see for average white dudes, there's only so many, so many, doing so many things. And that seems to be fine to get by them. And so there's just like seeing these narratives either it's really good or really bad. And like, how do people cope with that growing up? Does your life even matter what you do even matter if it's not absolutely amazing? That's just a lot of pressure to put on people. And I think that's a narrative that really needs to change. Let's show black people doing normal things and not, you know...
Dawn: Right. I mean, it's like we had Michelle Obama that was the most educated first lady in history. We have Megan Markle who became a princess…
Ochuko: Look how turned out?
Dawn: I like how that, you know, turned out because of media, whether they recognize it or not set higher expectations, of very well educated, very independent, like financially, before joining this royal family and like having a place in a significant place in its history and a significant role globally, you know, that representation is important. Right? But yeah, it sucks that that's a lot of pressure to put on an individual to represent an entire community of people all over the world. It's like, it's just, how are you supposed to meet those expectations?
Ochuko: It’s wild. I don't know. Cause when you're the only.. there there's so many people that I'm probably their only black friend, you know? And when they think of black people, they're going to think of me and what I did. And so just like a weird thing that has to do with just letting people see so many types of people, and I think another thing is that whole strong black woman thing, like I'm like, Oh, black women are so strong. We're only strong cause we have to be strong. Like it's not like fun, like having to be strong all the time and all that stuff. Like I wish it was okay to be.. you could be a black woman who really was just doing her thing and not doing the most and still get by. And that still is okay because it works for other people.
Kimberly: For sure.
Ochuko: You know, and I just wished that there was more accessibility in the middle areas. Cause that's honestly where the representation is going to come from.
Dawn: Well, I feel like that's kind of why we're here is to highlight people, not to say that you're not amazing.. [Laughing]
Kimberly: Cause you are!
Dawn: But we like talking to everyone here because everyone's story is so important, so different.
Kimberly: Right, right. Like it, it shouldn't be only people that are already in leadership positions getting more recognition.
Dawn: But people that are probably going to change the world cause it seems like you might be. And we got you early too.
Ochuko: I know. Catch ‘em early [Laughing]
Kimberly: That's right. [Laughing] Well thank you for joining us.
Ochuko: Thank you. This was really fun.
Dawn: Yeah. It's great to have you in here and your energy is awesome.
Ochuko: Thank you.
Kimberly: Also though. We've so we've got to ask…
Dawn: Oh yeah. Our thing that we like to do.
Kimberly: Are you ready?
Dawn: I'm ready.
Kimberly: All right.
Dawn and Kimberly together: What's your favorite life hack?
Kimberly: That's so funny. Are you going to post that on Instagram?
Dawn: We don't mind, probably on Tic Toc.
Ochuko: I don’t do Tic Toc, my friends do though
Dawn: Good for you.
Kimberly: I don't even understand it. What do you do, just dance? That’s all I see on there!
Dawn: Tell jokes?
Kimberly: I don't know what it is, but anyways.
Dawn: Yeah. Okay.
Dawn and Kimberly together: What's your favorite life hack?
Ochuko: So this one kind of isn't aligned with the whole theme of extremes that we've been talking about. And I've sort of learned this over the last year and that's that to kind of like pay attention to like the small, normal, everyday things. I know last semester I was really on this grind of, I need to be so spectacular, I'm going to do the absolute most. And so like, what I would say is like a two dimensional thing where it's just like, just do it. Just kind of like go for it, whatever it is, just do it. And I know it sounds really simple, but people that, a lot of things hold them back because apparently my whole thing is like, I will do and I will try, I will try.
Like I will listen to this podcast a year ago and I would tell my parents, I can't wait to be on a podcast. And they're like Ok, Ochuko and now I’m on one, so, you know, like I didn't just do anything to get here. I just do other stuff and it'll lead you to where you want to be. But also I think for people who are really passionate about what they do and have a lot of drive, sometimes your whole identity might be wrapped up in that, in your head. And so I'd say also pay attention to the small things. Like just hanging out with your friends or being a 21 year old, and do whatever 21 year olds do. And, you know, just be in the moment because at the end of the day, like that's kind of what matters. And just make sure you're not, you're taking advantage of all the everyday things and not focusing too much and being like this larger than life person doing larger than life things. It's kind of like my life hack.
Dawn: Love it.
Kimberly: Yeah. It's like, be more human.
Dawn: Yeah. I want to just be a 21 year old again, so I’m going to allow myself to be a 21 year old again today. Like you gave me permission to do so and I'm going to enjoy it. [Laughing]
Ochuko: It's hard. That's the only thing..
Dawn: Well, I'm not going to go back to college or anything like that. I'm not going to do homework with my 21 year old day. I’m just going to say I graduated at 20 in this alternate reality where I get to be 21 today. But I’m now on my after college gap year. Setting up a whole world for myself. I'm ready.
Kimberly: Yeah. It's true. Everything at your hands.
Dawn: Now I'm going to travel, going to meet new people.
Kimberly: Let's go travel.
Dawn: I'm ready.
Kimberly: Well, thank you so much for joining us.
Ochuko: Thanks for having me.
Dawn: It's been a lot of fun.
Kimberly: It's been a lot of fun.
Dawn: I guess I'm back to being 37 again. [Laughing]
Kimberly: Her energy was awesome.
Dawn: I know it really inspired me while she was here. I've lost some of my youthful enthusiasm.
Kimberly: Yes, yes it's yeah. I won't mention anything more on that topic, but yes, her energy was awesome…
Dawn: And she's just so smart and she wants to talk about not being excellent, but she was pretty freaking excellent.
Kimberly: I know seriously though, but it was great to have her on here. And we, again, hope that you all enjoyed this episode as much as we did. We also want to thank Kassner and Coding for letting us use their space, per usual. And Max..
Dawn: We always have to thank Max. For making us sound a little less silly sometimes
Kimberly: And professional more than like, we actually do sometimes.
Dawn: Yes. I sound like a professional woman, when Max mixes me.
[Laughing]
Kimberly: Like my family recently listened to this and they told me that I sounded really professional. And my brother was extremely surprised because apparently I just act like a baby around them. But whatever.
Dawn: you only stopped being a baby about a month ago.
Kimberly: Yeah like a month ago. So woohoo adulthood! But if anyone has feedback for us, what you enjoy about the podcast..
Dawn: What you love about the podcast.
Kimberly: Yeah if you want to be on the podcast, How do they reach out to us Dawn?
Dawn: They can hashtag @PDXWITPodcast on Twitter. They can email us at podcast@pdxwit.org. They can come to a PDXWIT happy hour and track down me or Hazel or Elizabeth whoever's there and say, I want to be on this podcast cause I have something important to share with the community.
Kimberly: Yes. Yes. Awesome.
Dawn: Also, if you do like us and we hope you do like us, go ahead and rate us, like us, subscribe to us, tell your friends about us, tell your moms about us because moms really like us. My mom listens to the podcast.
Kimberly: I was going to say, my mom likes us… Max's mom liked us.
Dawn: Max's mom did like us. Three out of three moms.
Kimberly: Mothers like us.
Dawn: If you're not a mom, we think you'll also like the podcast.
Kimberly: But yes. Go share.
Dawn: Rate, like, feedback, view everything, feedback loop, fishes..
Kimberly: And keep on listening.
Kimberly: Catch you next time.
Megan Bigelow: PDXWIT is a 501c3 nonprofit with the purpose of encouraging women, non-binary and underrepresented people to join tech and supporting and empowering them so they stay in tech. Find out more about, about us at www.pdxwit.org