Jesselle Hedman: Beyond diversity

Jesselle Hedman shares how her background in organizational communications theory helped her impact the workplace through an equity, inclusion, and diversity lens. From building out a diversity and inclusion program at Vacasa to recruiting for Thinkful, a forward thinking career accelerator program with an emphasis on student success.

She shares the pitfalls of focusing on diversity alone, conflating diversity and inclusion, and creating solutions without communicating with the communities these efforts are attempting to solve for. Jesselle shares concrete steps organizations can take to create an inclusive environment from flexible holidays to diverse candidate pools, hiring panels, and more.

We hope you are inspired to follow Jesselle's lead in starting conversations around equity, inclusion, and diversity, and then empowering those around you to continue them.

Transcript

Megan Bigelow: Welcome to Breaking The Glass Ceiling - a PDXWIT podcast. I’m Megan Bigelow, the founder of PDXWIT. We interview people to dig below the surface of their achievements and challenges, showcasing the story behind the story. We believe that focusing on the person and humanizing their lived experiences will help us shape the future of tech. 

This season of Breaking The Glass Ceiling is brought to you by Kiva. Kiva is an international nonprofit working to expand financial access to help underserved communities thrive. 100% of every dollar you lend on Kiva goes to funding loans. By lending as little as $25, you can be a part of the solution and make a real difference in someone’s life. More than 80% of the borrowers Kiva serves around the world are women. Learn more at kiva.org.

Dawn Mott: Hey y’all, welcome back! Again, I’m Dawn Mott, she/her. I’m with Kimberly Emberly, also she/her. 

Kimberly Embry: Whaddup, y’all? 

[laughs] 

Dawn: Hey, Kimberly, who do we have in the studio today? 

Kimberly: Today we have Jesselle Hedman. Jesselle uses she/her pronouns. She’s a Talent Professional, who applies equity and inclusion in hiring, and specifically we’re going to hear about how she applies this in her current role as a Recruiter at Thinkful. 

Dawn: Oh, awesome.

Kimberly: Alright, so lets meet Jesselle. ...Thank you, Jesselle

Jesselle Hedman: Yes!

Kimberly: I was actually uhh - for joining. Gosh, I didn’t even really like finish my thought before saying something else. But I was actually - we were all actually - wondering... How do you pronounce --? 

Jesselle: Jesselle. 

Kimberly: Yeah, Jesselle. 

Jesselle: It’s how it’s spelled.

Kimberly: [laughs]

Jesselle: My mom, the elementary school teacher. Super phonetic. Like... My brother’s Keaton. K-E-A-T-O-N. My sister’s Mariah. M-A-R-I-A-H. Like, very... There’s a song for that name because it makes sense.

Kimberly: Right.

Jesselle: There’s no hidden. 

Kimberly: Right, you’re like...You can’t mispronounce. No...

Jesselle: Yeah, Mariah? All the time!  And I’m just like…[whispers]

Kimberly: [laughs] Just say it!
Jesselle: But that’s it. Thank you! I appreciate you asking. 

[laughs]

Kimberly: Yeah. Thank you for joining us today! 

Jesselle: Yeah.

Kimberly: Happy to have you here.

Jesselle: Yeah. Me too. Happy to be here. 

Kimberly: Good, you’re stuck with us anyway! So - happy or not - you’re here!

Jesselle: Yayy! 

[laughs] 

Kimberly: Speaking of your, mom, tell us about your story. You can take it from the beginning. What was your childhood like? 

Jesselle: Yeah! So I was adopted. I’m the oldest of three kids. We were all adopted from different families across the United States. All adopted the day we were born, which gave us an incredible relational bond as a family...

Kimberly: Oh, cool.

Jesselle: ...and I think really allowed us to thrive as a family unit. I am mixed race. My mother was white. My father was black. Both of my siblings are black. Both of their parents are black. We had two white parents. We were a black pack of siblings in West Linn, Oregon. So, a really unique experience growing up in a space where, obviously, education was the prime expectation. But it’s white. People joke that West Linn is called “White Linn.” That’s because it’s white. So, I think, for us, it was imperative that we had each other in that space to kind of  navigate that, and look back and navigate that now that we’re all adults. We’re all spaced two years apart exactly. The biggest difference is, like, four and a half years. But, yeah. We all left West Linn pretty quickly and went on our own adventures in various places. But, finding and owning our blackness has been a big part of growing out of that experience, and I think my parents did an exceptional job of knowing that we were in West Linn, and trying to help us connect with our culture in the best ways that they knew how. We always would get our hair done at Geneva’s on MLK. My little 5-foot white mom would take us down there in the 90s. There were not a lot of white people out there in the 90s. um , and…(she) did it with pride and happily took us to support our cultural heritage in getting our hair done. We had a lot of friends in Portland, and Southeast Portland, that were of varying backgrounds. So we weren’t confined, necessarily, to West Linn growing up. I think that they worked incredibly hard to ensure that we had cultural experiences, to the best of their ability, in a place that’s primarily white. And so, I give so much thanks and grace to them for exploring that and understanding that, when it wasn’t really a conversation that was being had…

Kimberly: Mhm...Like at that time? 

Jesselle: ...At that time, yeah. And so, that really informed my journey. So, I originally went to Oregon State. Did not like that. Didn’t like the vibe there. Was not for me. Moved home. Worked for Nordstrom for two years. 

Kimberly: Shout out! Good store! Sorry, I had to. 

Jesselle: Yeah! Yes! Which store did you work at? 

Kimberly: No, I just love shopping there. 

Jesselle: You just love Nordstrom’s! It’s the best place. I could tell you a lot of good secrets. I could tell you a lot of good secrets. 

Kimberly: After.

Jesselle: After, yes! So I worked at Nordstrom for two years. During that time, I really realized this exceptional connection that some of the sales folks had to the customers. There was this woman specifically in the suiting department, who had been suiting this family for 25 years. She suited the father for his wedding, watched him and his wife have their sons. 

Kimberly: Aww…

Jesselle: And then their sons got married, and when their sons needed to be suited for their weddings, who did they come to? Obviously this person they have this relationship with, right? And so… That, for me, was impactful. I didn’t understand how she could make so much money being a human, and that was intriguing to me. So I went back to school and I studied Communications. I went to Portland State. In that space, I started to learn about Interpersonal Communications, Group Communications, Media Communications. And then I took a course on Organizational Communication. That really changed my life. Shout out to Dr. Natalie Nelson Marsh. She introduced me to a view of communicating and influencing based in equity and based in organizational effectiveness. And, I bought into that very strongly. I do to this day. I think that Organizational Communication Theory kind of guides the work that I do and the way that I have navigated my path. I do hope, in the future, to revisit that passion at the higher level of education. But, in that class, I learned to view equity, and inclusion, and diversity, through the lens of the workplace, and how to impact that in the workplace. I did a couple of assignments with different organizations across town, and really worked internally with some of them to talk about some of their diversity concerns and their concerns about the ways that they were creating diversity programs and trying to help folks to understand where they may be tokenizing people and where they may be making people feel like they don’t actually belong. So, kind of missing that inclusion piece, for the name of the diversity piece. And I think those conversations started in 2014. 

Kimberly: Was that during your education? Jesselle: Yeah, so that was like during my junior and senior year of school. Um, and then, I realized, talking to organizations across town, that a lot of the diversity and inclusion work was sitting on the HR team. Naturally, coming out of school, I was like “Great! So that’s where I need to sit!” And I didn’t study HR, so I don’t have a business degree. But I do have this Organizational Comms background that’s pretty strong. All of my professors at Portland State are -- most of my professors that I still talk to. Dr. Ali Shaker is someoneI talk to multiple times a year. These are folks that changed my life in teaching me how to read into research, and understand root causes, and question things in the right way, and to be intentional about the words that you choose when you’re communicating, especially about things that can be sensitive. Through that, I got a job as an HR Coordinator as Vacasa. When I started there, they had around 900 employees. When I departed from there, they had closer to 3500 employees. 

Kimberly: Oo! Are they going public?
Jesselle: I don’t know. I have no idea. But they are - they were at an incredible place to learn because they had so much opportunity for innovation. So very shortly into that journey, I was working with my supervisors. I felt really confident in the job that I was doing, and I raised my hand to kind of head up some diversity & inclusion initiatives. My director gave me the ok. I had the opportunity to work with the leadership team there to build out the beginning of that programming, and then, kind of found myself in a unique journey last year navigating...figuring out what I wanted to do after that and how I wanted to impact folks in the most positive way.

Kimberly: Before you get too far…

Jesselle: Yeah, go ahead.

Kimberly: You said that you started building out the diversity and inclusion program at Vacasa. What did that look like? 

Jesselle: Yeah, so [laughs] what does that look like from the beginning? The first thing for me was research and talking to our employees. I did an activity where I used the Vacasa values, and asked folks to share where they thought we were really strong in exemplifying an inclusive culture, and where they thought we had room to improve. And really guided by those employees' thoughts and feelings about their experiences there, we made recommendations to the leadership team based off of that feedback, things that they were seeing, things that they were concerned about in the space, and created a plan to move forward in a way that was intentional and impacted folks. I think, again, when you’re at an organization that’s growing that quickly, so often, it kind of gets put to the sidelines. But it was important to not only the leaders there, but to the employees there, that that be a focus. And so, I think the leaders took that ask pretty seriously. I know that they’re continuing their efforts to move in that direction, even since I have not worked there. That, for me, feels really good. That’s the impact that I want to have. Hey I came here, and I started a conversation. And y’all continued the conversation because you feel empowered to do so. 

Kimberly: It didn’t only stay in HR. It was ingrained into the employee culture.

Jesselle: Absolutely. And - I think, not only ingrained. They were honest about the fact that they were working on ingraining it into the employee culture. This shouldn’t just sit with HR. This should sit across the business. A lot of the employees are like “what can I do? How can I be involved?” The most important thing you can take from that is be an ambassador for how you want to see your organization. Talk to people in a kind manner. Be inclusive. Ask other people for their ideas before sharing your own. Be a true collaborator. Work to be a better collaborator and leader. Ask your peers for feedback. I think, so often, folks get so wrapped up in their space, their career, their individual success. What I found is that, if you focus too much on that, you’re not taking advantage of the resources that are truly available to you, such as the folks around you that are trying to help you grow. You kind of get stuck in that, I think.

Kimberly: Yeah for sure. So, what are you doing now? Continue. Tell this story.

Jesselle: Yeah, so - very exciting! I moved from a really traditional HR Generalist space, into a Recruiting space. It is an exceptionally awesome experience thus far. I’m really passionate about the people operations or employee experience function. So, not only the HR piece, but learning & development, recruitment, payroll, retention, benefits, and how all those things tell the story to creating a really impactful employee culture, that is truly shaped and driven by the needs and wants of the employees. And having leaders that understand that, that’s central to their success. That they have strong goals, but that people need to be bought into those goals, and need to also believe in those, in a way that’s also holistic, so that everyone’s on the same page. Now I’m recruiting. I’m hiring mentors. I work for Thinkful, which is a bootcamp. It started more as a bootcamp. Now it’s evolved into an incredibly strong career accelerator. 

Kimberly: Can you tell me what a career accelerator is? 

Jesselle: A career accelerator, as opposed to a bootcamp, is something that really commits to the backend piece of the bootcamp. The bootcamp can give you the technical knowledge that you need to go out and be successful in the world. But there’s a huge part of sharing your technical knowledge in a way that’s artful, and strong, and tells a story about who you are as a technical expert in the space that you occupy. And so, Thinkful has an incredibly strong commitment to that student success. Not only throughout the technical curriculum, but ensuring success on the backend of that, as in finding a job and finding a career you’re happy in, so that you can benefit from that knowledge.

Kimberly: You don’t get abandoned after you graduate.

Jesselle: No…

[laughs]

Jesselle: Exactly. That’s the thing that makes Thinkful incredibly different, and sets Thinkful apart from other organizations that I’ve seen in the space, is that commitment to the careers piece. Thinkful was a leader in creating transparent metrics for boot camps across the country. Saying, “let's parse our data in this way, that tells this story.” And really talks about who’s serving the students in the most strong way. I’m so happy to be a part of an organization that is committed to student outcomes, and is truly changing people's lives. There are so many cool success stories, of course. But, I think, more than anything I can feel it in the organization. You can feel that everyone’s there to drive toward the mission of student success, and that feels really great.

So, I’m now recruiting. And I’m now finding talent and engaging with talent across the country that’s passionate about student experiences and teaching and supporting students. That is a mission that I find incredibly important and impactful.

Kimberly: What inspires you or motivates you to do this work? 

Jesselle: I think there’s a couple of things. My mother, who passed away in 2011, was a huge impact. She was an educator. She was an elementary school educator. She primarily worked with low-income students. My sister actually, now, is an educator as well, working with low-income students in Atlanta. But - education was supremely important in my life. Education enabled my dad to grow in his career and leave something that would have been comfortable and cushy for the next 20 years, and go explore something that he saw a lot of value in. While that’s an incredible privilege to have, he worked very hard for that. So, education was a tool. I’ve always thought of it as a tool and an incredible privilege. This last year, actually, we all graduated. My mom, the one thing she wanted in her passing, was just for us to graduate. All of us to get to go to college and not be crippled by student debt. So we definitely all succeeded on that mission and it feels really, really great to have done that. But we had so much support along the way. I don’t know what I would have done without that support. I don’t know how I would have made it. How I would have navigated some of that space without the privilege that I had. I think it’s incredibly important to give back to a system that I think supported me, and I think it’s really important to do that in a way that’s going to give folks an advantage...a technical advantage. We know we’re moving in the direction of technical skills really being supremely valuable, and if I 

can be part of creating that experience for folks that may not have felt like they had that opportunity, I’m all about that, because I feel like I had such opportunity, I want to work to give it back. I would love to continue along that journey.

Kimberly: So you’re empowering the next generation? 

Jesselle: Or the current generation.

Kimberly: The current!

Jesselle: I think what’s so great about the work, is you know… I think what we’re seeing in kids right now, and young adults, is this empowerment that they’re getting to 10 years before I got to, and that is so exciting for me. We have kids that are saying, “no, this is not ok and I’m not ok with this.” Ten years before I even had enough context to say that. And that’s empowering to me! If we can get folks access to tools like the internet and things that give them knowledge and allow them to use that for their personal mission...I’m all about it. I really, I think education drives me and motivates me, and my privilege in that, and then my hope to give back to others in that same manner. 

Kimberly: Awesome, thank you. Alrighty, so this season we’re talking about equity/social justice issues. But I feel like in the workplace, we do hear DE&I. Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion. Those are the words that, at least in my workplace, other workplaces that I know of, that’s what we hear. What do you think about that? 

Jesselle: I definitely think we’re moving past this diversity conversation, and it’s, to me, a little bit expired and taking on a very different meaning than I think folks intend for it to. So I kind of want to move past the diversity conversation, specifically because I think that we’ve learned that having diverse representation is not solving issues of inclusion and ensuring equity for folks that come from different walks of life within organizational settings. It’s also not solving for representation in leadership level positions, C-Suite level positions, aren’t showing that same diverse representation that we’re seeing some companies tout as their solution to the diversity issue. So I think we definitely need to move past purely look at numbers of who’s in these spaces. I think there are companies out there that want to say, “oh, we’ve increased our diversity numbers by 20% this year” failing to mention that, that was all at the administrative level, or that, that was all under the managerial level. Everyone was an individual contributor. They’re not parsing the numbers in a way that is responsible to the equity conversation and doesn’t quite illustrate the full picture of what folks need to be doing. We need to move into a space where we’re being really transparent about whose message we’re sharing, ensuring that folks who feel comfortable navigating and understanding the word diversity aren’t speaking for diverse folks, or aren’t creating programs or solutions without consulting the communities that they’re trying to solve for. That’s always been an issue and I continue to see it being an issue. Folks use diversity and inclusion simultaneously in a way that is really problematic. They aren’t the same. Inclusion is intentionality in the way that you’re creating your department, the way that you’re providing opportunities and project work, the way that you’re giving folks stretch assignments and setting expectations for folks. I think we need to move past that diversity piece and stop conflating diversity and inclusion, as well, and making sure that we understand the difference between the two. I also think I'm citing an article here from Forbes. “9 Diversity & Inclusion Practices to Leave in 2019,” by Janice Gassam. We have this reactionary response to diversity issues. We saw it with Starbucks. We see it constantly with companies shutting down for a day and committing a day to diversity training. The issue in that is that you should have had a solution to that before the issue happened. If you had been intentional in trying to solve the issue of inclusion, solving for the biases that you know exist in people's minds because we live in this world...that, you wouldn’t have had to be so reactionary. I think not acknowledging the reality of the experiences of folks within our organizations is hugely problematic. There are many organizations that don’t recognize Martin Luther King, Jr. Day as a holiday, and that forces black folks to have to ask for that time off, or use Paid Time Off. Also, we know there’s an issue of access to Paid Time Off. Most folks aren’t able to take 8 hours to have an emotional response to something that, of course they would have an emotional response to. Things as basic as, revisiting what your holidays are and sharing the reasons for changing those with your employees, looking for opportunities within your benefit structures to ensure that IVF is covered so that folks from different walks of life, and folks who choose to create families in different ways have access to that in a way that their organization and their workplace supports them. So yeah, I think those are some of the things that we can do. Specific to Portland, I see this thing happen that’s really interesting, where folks at organizations who know that they have a diversity problem will reach out specifically to communities of color or communities that have diverse representation to find candidates for roles that they want to fill. While I think that it is incredibly important to have a diverse candidate pool, I think that’s the solve to a lot of this, is ensuring that the top five candidates that you’re bringing in for interviews are of diverse representation. Having that be forefront of mind, but then being very intentional in the way that you’re gaging capabilities of those folks when you’re interviewing them. Making sure that they’re interviewing with a diverse representation of folks that currently work at your organization.  Making sure that you have a wide range of perspectives, and understanding where your biases come in and where you might be making assumptions of people's skills instead of asking and clarifying for understanding. But it’s important that you also understand that, it’s very likely in a city like Portland that, that panel of five folks that are all skilled and qualified for that job, is likely to have a white man on it. Because Portland has a lot of white men. It’s important that, when we’re talking about those skill sets, and when you’re really choosing your candidates for senior-level positions and leadership-level positions, that you’re considering the diverse representation, but that you’re choosing the best candidate for the job. I feel that I’ve been in a couple of positions where I’ve been chosen for the position because of the color of my skin. That doesn’t make me feel good. It also isn’t what any - I feel comfortable saying, I don’t think folks of color want to be picked because of the color of their skin. They want to be picked because they’re qualified and because they’ve exemplified that they can do the job to their best ability and they’re the best candidate for the job. They don’t want that job because they’re the diverse hire. You know when you got the job because you’re the diverse hire. 

Kimberly: They didn’t have your growth in mind or anything like that, it’s a numbers game.

Jesselle: A numbers game and - uh - look how good we look! When you, then use those numbers to exploit people and to say, “hey, look what I can do!” … you’re not setting anyone up for success. You made this person who maybe was the most qualified for the position but didn’t fit the picture of the person that you wanted, you made them feel like they don’t have the right skills for the position. And then you might have picked someone that doesn’t quite actually have the right skills for the position and then they’re going to have imposter syndrome and they’re going to feel defeated at the end of the process anyway. And so...You’re not setting up anybody for success if you’re picking the wrong candidate. You want to always pick the strongest candidate for the position, and be aware of where your biases impact that. Ensure that you are doing your best to check yourself in that space. Always choosing the best candidate for the job. I can’t imagine a world in which we’re just choosing people based on the color of their skin. I mean, that’s exactly what we’re fighting against. So why are we perpetuating that narrative? I think it’s important for leaders, it’s important for white men who are worried about, “oh, do I have enough diverse representation? Am I hiring enough diverse folks?” That’s not the question you should be asking yourself. The question you should be asking yourself is, “do I have diverse representation in my hiring pool, and is that showing up in the people that are in my organization? Because I’m being intentional about the folks that I’m putting up for these positions and giving everyone equitable opportunity.” Are you, maybe taking names and photos out of the equations? Out of your review process so that all you see are folks qualifications? Are you, maybe, what efforts are you making behind the scenes to try to remove bias from your processes and how are you building your processes to be equitable and to gage skills? 

Kimberly: Can you answer some of those questions for us?
[laughs] 

Jesselle: There are so many ways to remove bias. What’s really important is that there’s no one-size-fits-all answer. I know how to remove bias for organizations that I have worked for because I understand where their pain points are and I understand where they struggle. But that’s where organizations need to pay money to communities who know the answers to those questions, to find solutions that are driven by the community, and that are driven by their employees that they want to retain. I think everybody wants an easy - I want an easy answer to that question, but it doesn’t exist. 

Kimberly: It sounds like there are professionals out there that can help you.
Jesselle: There are so many professionals out there. There are so many incredibly strong equity consultants. One of my mentors is an incredible human being. Cat Gonhauer. She doesn’t actually live in Portland anymore. She taught me what equity was and what it looked like in practice, and gave me a really strong foundation to move forward in that way.

Kimberly: Can you give us a story about what equity looks like? 

Jesselle: Yeah - what equity looks like! Oh my God! Absolutely. So I think - One of the best ways that I’ve seen equity take place is - I’m not going to give too much away because it’s a little bit proprietary information but, um, is - in the hiring process. We all are very, very traditionally used to - you submit your resume, you maybe have somebody that you know that works for the organization that puts in a good word for you. And then you get reached out to. You have an interview where they kind of gage your interest and then after that, like 10 or 15 minutes, you decide if you’re moving forward with them or not. And you kind of stop there with some candidates, some other candidates you move forward. But what is the rubric that we’re all going off of to make that decision? And are you using that rubric every single time? Are you revisiting that rubric every quarter to ensure that the changes that you want to see on your team are represented on that rubric? Are you creating a process that specifically focuses on competencies and skills? So are we focusing on the past experience? What are you bringing to this organization that’s going to make you successful? What impact have you had in organizations that you’ve worked with? And then, separate from that, are you a fit for this position? Are you a fit for the expectations that we have of whomever comes into this role? Do you want to do this job? Are you passionate about the work you would do in this space and how would that work? And of course you get a lot of behavioral answers in those kinds of interviews.

But then, you know, setting expectations for the job before you send an offer letter. So sitting down manager to potential employee and saying, “these are the expectations that I have of this person and this job. I think you’re going to execute perfectly. This is where I see you being incredibly strong. This is where I see you being heavily impactful for our organization. 

This is where I think that you’re going to have some roadblocks. This is how I plan to help you. What expectations do you have of me as a manager?” And having a really, really strong conversation where you’re setting the playing field as partners, as opposed to setting a power dynamic between a manager and an employee, can really set up folks for success. I think that’s one way we can look at removing some bias from the process. I think that process solves for some organizations and wouldn’t solve at others.But a lot of is really being thoughtful and intentional, working with equity consultants that know what they’re doing and have proven track records of success, and who are truly passionate about this work. You can tell if someone is or is not. And I think being intentional there is important, as well. 

Kimberly: One thing I kind of wanted to touch on earlier, kind of like having that diverse set of candidates, that might be, like, a white man. And yeah, for Portland, they are here. They are part of the community. So one story that I have, in my work experience is having a white man come up to me and ask me how they could be more considerate about - or intentional around like diversity, equity, and inclusion, especially as they were to like transition into more of a leadership role. I think that’s an important thing to talk about. One thing I mentioned was - talk to people. Listen to people. What’s your experience with that?

Jesselle: Yeah, so - I, in almost every workplace I’ve worked in, have been asked that question. So, I think that’s an important piece of this. When you - I would share, and I would hope that folks that are trying to navigate that space, understand that you’re asking something that is emotionally trying for someone to respond to. So, first and foremost, being aware that what you’re asking out of that person for support, is a lot of emotional labor. So, first of all, being conscious of that and saying, “hey, I know I’m not where I need to be in this space. I know that it’s not your burden to bear to answer these questions for me. However, would you be willing?” is a really good way to go about that initially. I also think, navigating in that space, I think if you trust someone to ask them that, you probably have a strong enough relationship with them, that that would go over well. But I think being intentional in your ask, first of all, understanding that that’s an emotional burden that folks bear, being asked to answer that, and not being paid for that work. I also think it’s important to have those relationships. I think that’s where I’ve benefited some of the most in my career, is having those relationships with folks that don’t understand or are learning in their journey and are so up front about “I didn’t know that this was something that I should be concerned about and I found this out and now I need more information and I need you to help me navigate this space.” That’s absolutely reasonable. Just be aware of the burden of that energy, of that person to share that information with you. And I think that those relationships are incredibly important, like you said. To listen. To go to places where there are folks that are different from you, that are sharing their perspectives, and listen to them. Hear what they have to say, and engage with that. Ask questions that are respectful. If you get told that your question wasn’t respectful, don’t be defensive. Ask why. I’d love to - I’m so sorry. Help me understand why because I don’t want to do that again. Being open. I think, unfortunately, the masculinity complex expects men not to be vulnerable. Expects men not to be emotional. Expects men to show a certain side of themselves that is difficult for them to do if they are trying to navigate in this space. So I wanna also make sure to mention that. That, like, there is an emotional burden going on here for a lot of folks, and it’s emotionally charged. That’s why being defensive is not a good response. Trying to aim at understanding. Like you said - listening and talking. How many times have you been invited over to the house of somebody who wasn’t the same and didn’t have the same background as you? Think about those things and think about where you choose to occupy your time and who’s there. And maybe, learn to listen to different communities. We live in a place that has an incredible amount of diversity, if you know where it is. It -- up Division, near Zenger Farms. I think it’s 145th. 130th & Division. There’s a 10-mile radius where there’s 28 spoken languages. Those communities are primarily refugee communities that are well-represented but folks don’t - there’s not direct support, there’s not direct access, and so you have to go out of your way to learn. And I think that’s fair to ask because we live in a community and a society where the expectation is learning about whiteness and learning about white culture and celebrating white culture. So to ask someone to go out of their way to learn about another culture because it’s not the expected norm, I don’t think that's a huge ask. For folks that are truly - for that person that asked you that question, I think that would be a good answer for them. They seem engaged in wanting to understand. So you know, get engaged. Get on mail lists. I got in - I’m on the mail list for Partners In Diversity and I got a notification about an event that a good friend of mine - Marcus Carter, who I believe was on a podcast earlier this year - and I have been waiting to come to Portland. I immediately let him know, “hey this is coming, we’ve gotta go!” And it’s being tuned into where these opportunities exist to learn about new things, and taking advantage of those opportunities. This is a free event. You know… but it’s something I’ve been wanting to see for over a year.

Kimberly: Yeah, most definitely. I mean, I’m sure a lot of people are into all the documentaries and whatnot on Netflix, and that is a way to learn about other  cultures, other people, other walks of life, other choices, whatever, and I hope to see more of actual real conversations happening instead of just this. I mean it’s good to read, and it’s good research, absolutely, but it’s also good to do the legwork and go out there, and like be a part of that community. 

Jesselle: Absolutely, and I think reading and having context from books - having - reading folks like James Baldwin who were talking about the same things that we are talking about now before black folks could vote. Looking to the experiences that people have documented, to inform you when you go out into those spaces. So that you have a better context. So that you understand why a defensive response might not be the best one. Trying to always come from a place of understanding and, also, expect that from the other, as well. We have this othering that’s happening, constantly. We have to assume positive intent.

Kimberly: Yeah. Most definitely. Do you have any last thoughts? 

Jesselle: No, I think... trying to be honest about where we’re all at. I have been in this space for a while but I learn something new every single day because of the networks that I choose to tune myself into.

Kimberly: So, you’re not living comfortably everyday in your knowledge?[laughs]

Jesselle: Oh no...oh no. I’m living very uncomfortably in my knowledge, actually every day. I think that’s what also makes working in this space and being passionate about equity and inclusion entails, is always being aware there’s more for you to learn. There’s more for everyone to learn. We’re all going to be ignorant to things because we haven't experienced them. That doesn’t make us stupid or dumb. It makes us curious. It should make us curious. It should make us interested in exploring and hearing from other people. My sister moved to the South, and that’s been one of the most impactful and important experiences I’ve ever had, because I don’t think that I would have necessarily visited South Carolina, or Georgia, and spent time in these places with my family, had it not been for her experiencing that place. And now I’m not scared of it like I was. I think that’s happened to me in the past three years. My dad is a single white man, who’s the parent to three black children who are grown adults, and he reaches out to me weekly with a new learning that he’s found because he watches Black-ish. He has this profound understanding of hair or something he didn’t understand as in full-force as he previously did and so...you know...I think we’re ignorant to say folks can’t learn, and I think, if we’re all curious about understanding each other in a way that is compassionate and backed in kindness, we’re going to be more successful in solving the diversity issue and in making workplaces more inclusive, in making organizations more inclusive, and in creating equity truly within those spaces. I want to see more black women as Chief HR Officers at organizations across this country. That would really help me to be able to see my future.

Kimberly: I want to see more black women as CEOs. CTOs. 

Jesselle: Yeah I want to see these people represented in these places so that we know that we get to exist there. I think that’s everybody’s job. I know that it’s hard. I think, if we can all be honest about where we are in our journey, we will be much stronger moving forward. 

Kimberly: Good themes of honesty, curiosity, open heart, kindness. 

Jesselle: Yeah, and yeah - just, I think, most people aren’t bad. I truly believe that. I believe that most people have good intentions in their heart, and that they’re speaking from their experience. If you remember that, and if you try to understand folks' experiences and why that may have shaped their beliefs, we’re all going to be in a better position. And in a better position to understand each other. 

Kimberly: Yeah, because we can all connect over that. We’ve all had our experiences. 

Jesselle: Exactly! And they’ve been different, and that’s what makes us all wonderful. Yeah, I think just, engaging in that space more as we move forward. Be intentional.

Kimberly: For sure. Thank you for sharing all of this. 

Jesselle: Yes! Thank you for having me.

Kimberly: We do actually have one more question. 

Jesselle: We do?!

Kimberly: One very last question. We can revisit this, based on your answer. No pressure. It’s all down to you Jesselle. What is your favorite life hack? 

Jesselle: Oh, life hack! Ok, so this comes from a leader I had in the past. Oh gosh, this is a good one. This is a good question. How do I present this? Hold on.

[laughs]

Kimberly: This is how you know this is on the spot. 

[laughs] 

Jesselle: It is. Ok, here it is! So when you - Everyone says, don’t take yourself too seriously. But I think, further than that, understanding that there’s always something to learn in every opportunity or every situation you’re in. I had the most tumultuous 2019 I’ve ever had - I think it was the most tumultuous year of my life, aside from the summer that my mother passed away. It hurt. It hurt me physically. It hurt me emotionally. It was really difficult. I think choosing to see the learning opportunities in every single part of that experience and being reflective about that, has helped me to grow from it, and to transition quicker from sitting and being sad about it and moving forward. I think that, you know, taking a moment to look up from what you’re doing at all times and reflect is really important. I learned that from my mom. I learned that from my family. I learned that from living experience, I guess. Taking time to reflect and find the value in whatever it is that you’re doing and whatever it is that you’re aiming for. And understanding that your goal might change in that. The value you find in that and what you get out of something may evolve. 

It’s important to always try to look to see what you’re learning. What is the world - what is the universe trying to tell you at that moment?

Kimberly: What is the lesson here? What’s my takeaway?

Jesselle: Yeah! Yeah!

Kimberly: Why am I in this race? GAH! There’s gotta be a reason. There’s gotta be a reason.

Jesselle: There has to be. And not even a reason. Not even asking why. But you know - It’s ok that I’m here. It’s ok that I feel this way. It’s not going to be forever, and - 

Kimberly: Acceptance.

Jesselle: And this is what I learned, because I didn’t know this four months ago. I didn’t know this three months ago. I didn’t know this a week ago. But now I’m so sure that I can do this and I can move forward and I’m strong.

Kimberly: You are strong. You’re awesome. We’ll go out into 2020 with this energy! Thank you!

Jesselle: Can’t wait. Let’s do it!

Kimberly: Thank you so much Jesselle, for joining us today. 

Jesselle: Thank you all for having me. It’s been fun!

Kimberly: Thank you!

Dawn: Yeah, thank you! Kimberly, that was awesome with Jesselle, don’t you think? 

Kimberly: Yeah. She has such a good vibe about her. It’s cool to hear her story. 

Dawn: I’m super into it. Also, I can resonate with it, growing up as a mixed race person in an adopted household. So you know - maybe that’s why I liked her so much.

Kimberly: Yeah, she had a really interesting story. And now I’m curious to hear your story.

Dawn: And you never will!Kimberly: You have no choice. 

[laughs]

Kimberly: No, but it was super cool to hear her story, and for me, she really brings a human aspect to a lot of stuff. I think sometimes people might view that as being a centrist in a lot of ways, but it was a good reminder to… you know, like think of people, that their intentions are pure at the end of the day, and that we have our own experiences. We don’t want people to judge our experience, so for me to judge...

Dawn: And it’s hard to remember that.
Kimberly: Yeah! But exactly - it’s hard to remember that and it’s even harder to practice. That was, for me, a really good reminder.

Dawn: I agree. 

Kimberly: Yeah. It’s cool.

Dawn: We’re going to wrap up here. Thank you Cast Iron Coding for letting us do this for three seasons now. 

[laughs]

Kimberly: Seriously though.

Dawn: Pretty cool. Thank you podcast team. Who do we have on the podcast team this season?

Kimberly: Same old, same old. Especially uh, Max out there. Always with us. Never wants to be on the mic, but that’s cool, that’s fine.

Dawn: If you want Max to be on the mic, #pdxwitpodcast #wewantmax. Something like that. He’ll see it and maybe he’ll talk to you.

[laughs]

Kimberly: And also shout out to April, and Elizabeth…

Dawn: Hm... and Marika!

Kimberly: Oh gosh, yes! 

Dawn: The team is growing!
Kimberly: The team did grow! Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry for forgetting. But yes, yes. It’s a good 2020. 

Dawn: It’s ok. We got them in. We’re ready! We hope you’re ready to come with us on this journey. PDXWIT.

Kimberly: Yeah, and um, send us your feedback if you have any. Let us know your thoughts, how you felt about - you, as in our listeners - how you felt about the episode. If you’d like to share anything

Dawn: You don’t want me feedback?Kimberly: I don’t need your feedback. It’s fine. This is not for you. But, thank you everybody! We’ll catch you next time.

Dawn: Byeee!

Megan Bigelow: PDXWIT is a 501(c)3 nonprofit with the purpose of encouraging women, nonbinary, and underrepresented people to join tech, and supporting and empowering them so they stay in tech. Find out more about us at www.pdxwit.org.